Proposal: Let Players Sell Stuff to Other Players

elecgraystone · Feb 27, 2010

renau1g said:
I think Ken's talking about a free market similar to MMO's where users list stuff for sale and other players buy it.

That's my guess too but I can't be sure.

renau1g said:
Elec - I linked to it in my post - just under Ken's

Oops! Missed it.

Thanks.

BenBrown said:
Each level, in addition to the allowed retraining, allow characters to swap out one magic item for an item of equivalent power level.

Interesting. I liked the idea of barter in the last thread but this is good too. The only thing I'd change is 'an item of equivalent power level or lower." It's quite possible that there isn't anything you like when you're getting rid of a 5th level item, but the chances are pretty slim you can say the same thing about 1st-5th level items. If people don't like the idea of being able to swap out items of equal level, that could be changed to 'an item of power level -1 or lower.'

Oni · Feb 27, 2010

I'm generally in favor of free exchange. I figure if you got the items you wanted on your wish list you're probably not going to be inclined to sell them, and if you didn't there isn't really any way to overcome that with the economic rules currently put for by 4e. If you can sell something for more than 1/5 and buy for less than full from another player well then it overcomes that somewhat.

If you want some regulation then require exchanges to be DM/judge approved or put a limit on the number of items or value of goods that can be exchanged in a certain period.

Or let us ponder on the power Lauto. They say the only things certain in life are death and taxes, perhaps a tax on exchanges equal to 1/5 the value of the exchanged item (excepting consumables) could help bleed off some of the excess wealth.

Mal Malenkirk · Feb 27, 2010

Ugh, sounds like a bad idea. It will create power gaps between PCs of the same levels.

Obviously, when I DM, I look at the wealth level of my PCs and try to correct any disparity so one might assume it will 'even out'.

I'd point three things:

1-If PC can sell items to each other, soon they all will. This means magic items are not going OUT of the system anymore (or much slower than they used to) while they keep coming IN at the same rate.

This will drive the prices way down. They will go inexorably lower until you reach the 20% floor value, at which point the seller would rather sell to a NPC. It's inevitable; even at 25% or 30% the seller is getting extra gold while the buyer is getting an item 3 or 4 level too powerful for him.

2-Long time players have more 'contacts' within the community so most of these great deals will be made between people who've known each other for a long time at the expenses of the newcomers. It's human nature. Surely no one here expect that JoeNewbie has the same odds of landing a killer deal on his magic items as KenHood, renaug1, covaithe or even me.

3-Even if DMs endeavours to balance things out, we are talking several months per adventure. That's several month for a player to have to endure being outgunned by a colleague of the same level (and often with the same role) who owns much better equipment.

Of course, DM could rush in to correct the situation, but that results in even more items flooding the market, prices going even farther down, resulting in the well connected players getting even better deals. Pretty much the definition of a vicious circle that will stop only when the market collapses and items are universally dirt cheap.

Mal Malenkirk · Feb 27, 2010

BenBrown said:
Each level, in addition to the allowed retraining, allow characters to swap out one magic item for an item of equivalent power level.

That's an entirely different topic, but I am getting the feeling that some players feel that getting the exact treasure they want is a right. They are entitled to get the perfect equipment combo as soon as those pesky treasures guidelines are met. It's as if the gaming world had been created to supply their PCs with the perfect equipment list to match their abilites.

That annoys me. Personnally I don't even post a wish list for my PCs and when I DM I never consult any PC's wish list.

On L4W, because I know many PC are in fact getting exactly their wish list, I do try to come up with mostly what I deemed to be useful items for the PCs, but even that is a little annoying to me.

In tabletop gaming, there is a good 50% of any items I hand out who are completely random! Rolling together on a table to discover hat we'll be getting is one of my group's faovrite D&D moments. Of course, you always need to supplement Lady Luck a bit to maintain balance, but the random treasures are almost always the most memorable. The most legendary item in my gaming group is the butter knife +3 (well, rightfully a knife, but at 1d3 in the old AD&D system, we figured it was a butter knife). It ought to have been completely useless, and it certainly was unremarkable, but it was so silly we loved it. We found myriads of use for it. Any problems the PCs faced, someone would wonder out loud how the butter knife could be put to use. Good times.

L4W culture is far too entrenched now, but if I had been there from the beginning, I'd have lobbyed for the mandatory use of a random magic item generator for at least 25% of any given treasure!

Mewness · Feb 27, 2010

Mal Malenkirk said:
That's an entirely different topic, but I am getting the feeling that some players feel that getting the exact treasure they want is a right. They are entitled to get the perfect equipment combo as soon as those pesky treasures guidelines are met. It's as if the gaming world had been created to supply their PCs with the perfect equipment list to match their abilites.

I agree that it's artificial, but the idea of DMs giving PCs things on their wishlists comes from the DMG, not from Living 4e culture. I'm not too keen on randomized treasure myself (but that's at least partly because I find most of the magic items in 4e extremely boring).

garyh · Feb 27, 2010

Mal Malenkirk said:
That's an entirely different topic, but I am getting the feeling that some players feel that getting the exact treasure they want is a right. They are entitled to get the perfect equipment combo as soon as those pesky treasures guidelines are met. It's as if the gaming world had been created to supply their PCs with the perfect equipment list to match their abilites.

That annoys me. Personnally I don't even post a wish list for my PCs and when I DM I never consult any PC's wish list.

On L4W, because I know many PC are in fact getting exactly their wish list, I do try to come up with mostly what I deemed to be useful items for the PCs, but even that is a little annoying to me.

In tabletop gaming, there is a good 50% of any items I hand out who are completely random! Rolling together on a table to discover hat we'll be getting is one of my group's faovrite D&D moments. Of course, you always need to supplement Lady Luck a bit to maintain balance, but the random treasures are almost always the most memorable. The most legendary item in my gaming group is the butter knife +3 (well, rightfully a knife, but at 1d3 in the old AD&D system, we figured it was a butter knife). It ought to have been completely useless, and it certainly was unremarkable, but it was so silly we loved it. We found myriads of use for it. Any problems the PCs faced, someone would wonder out loud how the butter knife could be put to use. Good times.

L4W culture is far too entrenched now, but if I had been there from the beginning, I'd have lobbyed for the mandatory use of a random magic item generator for at least 25% of any given treasure!

I respect that that's how you like to play, and I'm happy for you that it works well for your primary group.

In 4th Edition, as written by WotC, the use of wish lists and the assumption you'll get what you want for your PC is part of the system. I think that's even more important in an environment like L4W, where you aren't necessarily going to be with the same DM for long, so there's no chance to have them make up for the fact that your wizard ended up with a Club +1.

stonegod · Feb 27, 2010

The less you use wishlists, the more you increase the desire to sell items (i.e., to get what you want).

renau1g · Feb 27, 2010

I use wishlists

elecgraystone · Feb 27, 2010

Mal Malenkirk said:
It's as if the gaming world had been created to supply their PCs with the perfect equipment list to match their abilites. That annoys me.

The fact is that the 4E game WAS created with that in mind though. I don't get being annoyed by people wanting a default feature of the game you are playing. If anything I find it more reasonable for players to be annoyed when they get an item they aren't going to use since 4e expects you to plan out your character levels, items included.

Mal Malenkirk said:
In tabletop gaming, there is a good 50% of any items I hand out who are completely random!

While that's cool for a 1 GM game, what that does is make more work for the next GM when the player sells off a bunch of stuff and the new GM finds that they are behind in wealth. (they lose 80% by selling what they didn't want). They have to deal with a character that may be under equiped and need more equipment drops.

Mal Malenkirk said:
The most legendary item in my gaming group is the butter knife +3!

I recall a +3 mithril butter knife in my old AD&D game too. Good times. 4E is a far cry from AD&D though.

Mal Malenkirk said:
I'd have lobbyed for the mandatory use of a random magic item generator for at least 25% of any given treasure!

That just seems to me that you'd just make more hassle by having 25% of the items sold and forcing 25% of the PC's to be underequiped. Lose, lose in my book.

Now random would be better if some kind of exchange or barter system is in place so players don't fall behind in wealth. Giving a 2 weapon or 2 handed fighter a shield is ok if they can expect to trade it for something they can use at a later date. If not you might as well just give them 1/5 the money of it up front and not make them have to go sell it.

Now I'm with garyh when he said "I'm happy for you that it works well for your primary group." Random drops are cool if everyone gets them and the encounters are based on players having less wealth and equipment than a normal party. However being a few items behind from another character because they got what's on the wish list and you didn't is just asking for problems.

stonegod · Feb 28, 2010

I think converting L4W to the LEB parcel system will go a long way to solving kinks in this system as any gold earned would go part towards the 1/5 item gp per level gained (or the gold parcel of that level if it goes beyond that). I've been meaning ot propose that, but been too busy at work to finagle all the details.