Star Wars Saga: The Dawn of Defiance [OOC Thread]

Binder Fred · Apr 11, 2010

Just to note that Intimidate is not negotiation per se. It's a full round "social" attack meant to be used in combat (base book p. 71). Ganga's will defense is apparently higher than 13 (assuming a -10 circonstance bonus), but if a couple of +2s put it over the line, he would have no choice but to back down, be negatively affected in some way (shaken confidence) or something.

If you've removed this use of the Persuassion skill, Possum, I'd like to know for future reference, right?

possum · Apr 11, 2010

Well, I made that decision based on the module, which actually had ten people under Ganga's employ instead of the seven visual. Previously, Ganga had paid off Switch's guards to throw the fight and possibly outright defect if the situation deemed worth it. With the rolls I got for Ganga's guards, I had Switch's guys betray Ganga and fight with you.

Now, he's feeling the effects of Sloor's actions. There's still fighting, but he's not going to be doing any for a few seconds.

Hope I answered your questions.

Binder Fred · Apr 11, 2010

That it does!

While we're on the subject of skills though, I've tried to use Gather Information three times so far without results. Is this a useless skill for this campaign? Should I change it to something else?

possum · Apr 12, 2010

It is only useless when I don't see them, which I didn't. I'm very sorry for that.

perrinmiller · Apr 12, 2010

Mack's turn. Unless you don't want to spend a destiny point.

I am not smiling.

Sorry I was a little busy this weekend, barely able to keep up on the required posts. Otherwise I would have brought this up earlier; as I needed to go back re-read my posts to be sure. I was also originally thinking to PM this, but I changed my mind because I don’t think I am alone on this. I have taken great care on drafting this to try to keep from being misunderstood. I am grateful for being allowed to play and I have been having a good time. So at the risk of ticking the GM off and killing the game I am going to post it all.

:rant:

Possum: I am having a SERIOUS problem with how this combat got started. At first I was thinking to just go with it, figuring we are not hostile yet and the bad guys are going to mow down Switch’s guards. But now as events unfold AND I have had more time, I am more than a little upset. It would appear to me Mack’s actions were ignored and the campaign script was strictly followed to the letter instead. I believe draconian is the appropriate word. It is quite clear that the events leading up to rolling Inititiative are straight from the campaign material. To me this is an RPG not a board game, the GM has to be flexible on the situation and likewise position himself inside the game at times (like the players do) to look around react according to the scene.

In my mind Mack has been holding rear guard this entire time, mainly watchful of the Gamorreans at first. However I did not re-post he was continuing to cover the doorway either, just assumed that I did not need to. His conversations were not changing this, the spotting of Switch’s guards only made him more paranoid, not less

http://www.enworld.org/forum/5146930-post122.html

So essentially Mack has a ready weapon facing the doorway before Ganga shows up. You never said the door was closed behind us. Then two blaster bolts kill a Gamorrean in his plain view. Combat should have started then. 7 armed guys, having just killed someone in front of Mack, are NOT simply coming through that doorway without him having the opportunity to pull the trigger. Again he is essentially in a ready action state and probably more aware of them, possibly having a surprise round if the are not in view yet. The doorway's a chokepoint and they cannot realistically all get through the doorway in 6 seconds, let alone spread out a mere 10 feet away while Mack sits there holding his ‘johnson’ with a stupid grin on his face. In my mind you have given the bad guys 2 free rounds before we rolled Initiative even. It is even possible that Mack would have seen or heard some of them approach even before they shot the guard unless they all rolled Stealth Checks better than 16.

If the door is in fact closed, then it should have been posted earlier because Mack has been watching the Gomorreans while guarding the group’s backsides. Again I don’t think the player’s posts are being read carefully. Sloor’s missed Gather Information checks support this as well.

If you do decide to rule that the door is in fact closed, then combat should have still started before it was opened. Our characters would not have just stood around after hearing blaster fire. At minimum we would have dispersed to cover and drawn weapons. It is grossly unfair leaving the heroes stuck in the middle of the room, with potentially their weapons still holstered while armed hostiles saunter into the room. I would have overlooked Mack’s being on watch having no bearing on the coming encounter if we were being allowed to have weapons out and start pretty much wherever we wanted in the room (within 6 sq of the center). If he didn’t have his weapon already in hand, his only choice of action would have been to draw it and move to cover or shoot from the middle of the room (not bloody likely). Basically giving the bad guys free reign in round 1 as well since in SWSE you cannot draw a weapon while moving and it is not a Swift Action either unless you have Quick Draw.

Now after all this, you have the bad guys target the PCs, completely ignoring the enemy right in front of them. And due to some unlucky dice rolls I have to use my precious ‘get out of jail free card’ just to stay alive?!?! Of course being hit by a natural 20 is just bad news even if Mack had Improved Cover. But if the bad guys had to survive an auto-fire burst to get into the room to even see Mack, that 20 would have been directed at one of Switch’s guards in front of the doorway instead.

If you do actually read all of this closely and ignore it anyway, well, I’ll spend a Force Point to prevent death, dropping to 0hp and be unconscious.

Binder Fred · Apr 12, 2010

Hello Perrin, a couple of mitigating points, I think:

1. The introductory battle text states the doors were closed ("The blast doors slide open to reveal" etc). I sort of assumed they were as well, this being a private meeting place and all. Can't really fault the GM for not describing every door closing behind us, can we?

2. The first action taken by Switch's bodyguard was to form a line, specifically between us and the door. Everybody here assumed this meant we had time to get ready, and that most definitively includes your truly (and yourself as well, by your own admission).

3. Ganga's men then ignoring the bodyguards took everybody by surprise. It was meant to though. Read four posts above this: Ganga bribed the bodyguards to be on his side! We, in a very real sense, fell into a prepared ambush and were surprised, IC.

None of us were actually Surprised in a game's mechanic sort of way though, so Possum correctly supposed that as a group we were not distracted, were paying attention to our environment and had taken the necessary precautions (that would be Mack guarding the rear

). That Mack, supposedy the most prepared, still ended up reacting after the others is plain bad luck. His low initiative roll unfortunetly shows that he wasn't, in fact, as prepared and on the ball as you thought he was and/or that he underestimated the immediate nature of the threat ("we are not hostile yet and the bad guys are going to mow down Switch’s guards", or something along those lines). Contrarely to the others, he did describe his weapon as "in hand" though, so he does definitively have that on his side of the court.

That's how I see things. YMMV, of course, and I'm definitively not the final say on this type of thing (That would be Possum

). Just thought I'd share a different point of view.

possum · Apr 12, 2010

First off, to address your later comment about Ganga's group targetting mainly the PCs. I explained that earlier when I said that the Chevin had bribed the group to betray Switch, and he likely told his group of this. That's why they targetted you.

And you are right, the part about them shooting the guards and then entering the closed doors were in the module, and both actions were in the same boxed text. Am I putting the module first in this case? Yes, I have to admit that I am. I see that, at least the killing of the guards and entering the room, as sort of a video game cutscene that has pretty much nothing to do with the rules.

If you believe that I have slighted you personally in any way, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intent.

perrinmiller · Apr 13, 2010

possum said:
If you believe that I have slighted you personally in any way, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intent.

Ok, I guess it is pretty much me that has his feathers ruffled. And I am not taking it personally either, so no worries. I have no intention of taking my dice and going home. Just glad you did not take it personally either and toss me out.

I did note that the door opened. Its closure would have made my watching the Gomorrean’s incorrect then, would have been nice to know, but really has no impact on things since the door is ruled closed. I should have asked, so that issued can be tossed aside.

[sblock= What I should have tried to do before rolling my Initiative]As Sloor was negotiating with Switch to actually work for him, Mack should have actually ordered the interlopers to halt before even entering the room having just killed the new potential ally’s guard. When Ganga’s gang ignored that, he might have opened fire before they entered the room. You still might have ruled against this, but I could have tried. [/sblock]

possum said:
And you are right, the part about them shooting the guards and then entering the closed doors were in the module, and both actions were in the same boxed text. Am I putting the module first in this case? Yes, I have to admit that I am.

After posting I did break my personal rule and went into the campaign material and checked how this encounter was supposed to start and see if I was way off base or not. Yes the opening scene was in one block of text as I suspected, but I was specifically looking for where the characters were supposed start in the room. The material adjusts for the characters reactions to the blaster fire killing the Gomorrean by allowing the PCs to start ANYWHERE in the room, basically giving them a free round of preparation, retroactively. I think you ignored or missed that, and that was the equalizer in the situation making up for not getting to stop the scene from unfolding. Up to you if you want to fix it or not. :hmm:

Note: I did not check anything else in the campaign materials, I do not want to spoil the experience. :angel:

However this will not save Mack from his fate (being under cover would not have helped), and I am not going to cry over spilt milk on three bad luck rolls.

possum said:
To address your later comment about Ganga's group targetting mainly the PCs. I explained that earlier when I said that the Chevin had bribed the group to betray Switch, and he likely told his group of this. That's why they targetted you.

I see the point on shooting the PCs, it could have been much worse I guess. So I apologize for that, it was whining.

Just hope the loss of the Soldier for the encounter doesn’t result in TPK.

I must say, these first two encounters are making me consider to shoot first and ask questions later. I will try to be more specific on Mack’s rules of engagement, but I think he is going to be walking around with his finger on the trigger of his blaster and opening fire on anyone approaching with a weapon in hand, the rest of the time on the station. Well maybe I am just kidding, but getting shot in the head tends to make a guy trigger happy afterwards. :devil:

Supports Sloor's initial impression that Mack might be a crazy psychopath.

Nebten · Apr 13, 2010

I don't want to sound inconsiderate, I just don't want to get involved with the discussion but is Mack going to use a Force point to stablize?

And Sloor is next?

perrinmiller · Apr 13, 2010

Nebten said:
I don't want to sound inconsiderate, I just don't want to get involved with the discussion but is Mack going to use a Force point to stablize?

And Sloor is next?

Yes, Mack spent the FP. It was in the first post that I was ranting. I will put it in IC.