Proposal: Alter Expertise Related House Rule

Oni · Mar 3, 2010

In light of the recent errata to the Expertise feats and other feats that grant a bonus in accuracy I feel that L4W needs to adapt slightly to prevent future headaches.

I propose that we remove the +1/+2/+3 bonus to hit that was instituted in place of the Expertise feats and instead adopt an extra feat slot to offset the feat tax.

*It will allow us to use the WotC rules as written and if there should be future changes to any of the feats it will not break the system or require additional changes on our part.

*It will allow for more player choice, allowing those that wish to take advantage of more focuses feats such as Draconic Spellcaster or Feyborn Charm to do so, without reducing the value of those feats relative to the official material. I think this is important as we are likely to see more such feats in the future.

*The new Versatile Expertise appears to fix the old weapon/implement split classes, so that's not longer an issue.

*If someone really feels they would rather use the feat for something else, there isn't a more powerful option so it's not going to break anything. I would suggest the character creation guide note that the extra feat slot is to offset the feat tax associated with the Expertise feats and it is suggested that it be used for an accuracy increasing feat, but not required.

renau1g · Mar 3, 2010

I actually think this is a good idea. Just to confirm you're saying at level 5 the PC's get a bonus feat? Most will likely select Expertise, but they could select a different feat if they choose.

From my experience in the games I DM here & LEB PC's have very little issue hitting the monsters so potential stacking will make it even easier.

CaBaNa · Mar 3, 2010

This is gold.

It address' the issue in a way that reduces future house rules, and creates a draw for future players.

Is there a reason we issue the extra feat at level 5, instead of levels 4-1?

Oni · Mar 3, 2010

renau1g said:
I actually think this is a good idea. Just to confirm you're saying at level 5 the PC's get a bonus feat? Most will likely select Expertise, but they could select a different feat if they choose.

From my experience in the games I DM here & LEB PC's have very little issue hitting the monsters so potential stacking will make it even easier.

Personally I would just give it at first and just the natural feat progression take over from there just because it seems a little simpler and more elegant, but 5th would work too if people are worried about giving the extra feat early. Whichever one the judges are more comfortable with, as it does the intended task either way.

Kalidrev · Mar 3, 2010

I vote YES to this proposal, with the clarification that the feat slot is to be given out at 5th level.

(if this passed, it would mean that any character can take the expertise feats at any level they have an available feat slot or are retraining, right?)

Dekana · Mar 3, 2010

Kalidrev said:
(if this passed, it would mean that any character can take the expertise feats at any level they have an available feat slot or are retraining, right?)

This is actually a turn-off for me. Wasn't the purpose of giving out free expertise to counteract the fact that it was clearly the best choice of a level 1 feat? If we replace the rule with a free feat at level 5, we'll be right back where we started. New characters will have little choice but to take Expertise at level 1, and that tax won't be paid off until level 5 - a very long time to wait.

If we want to go with giving out a free feat, I think it should be done at level 1 instead.

Velmont · Mar 3, 2010

Also, if we switch it for a feat, it will discourage all multi-weapon/implement characters.

Example, a cleric with both Strength and Wisdom power who had free expertise now will need implement expertise Holy Symbol and weapon expertise Mace (or his favored weapon). I think this kind of build is already costing but interesting with the actual House Rules, now it will become even more underpower.

That would also apply to Paladin, the coming Hybrids, figthers with Weapon Master Strike, etc...

Ozymandias79 · Mar 3, 2010

I vote NO to this

I rather rather make the combat expertise bonus a feat bonus instead of an untyped one

Oni · Mar 3, 2010

Velmont said:
Also, if we switch it for a feat, it will discourage all multi-weapon/implement characters.

Example, a cleric with both Strength and Wisdom power who had free expertise now will need implement expertise Holy Symbol and weapon expertise Mace (or his favored weapon). I think this kind of build is already costing but interesting with the actual House Rules, now it will become even more underpower.

That would also apply to Paladin, the coming Hybrids, figthers with Weapon Master Strike, etc...

I believe that versatile expertise in the PHB3 takes care of this.

Velmont · Mar 3, 2010

Oni said:
I believe that versatile expertise in the PHB3 takes care of this.

Before making a change, I suggest we are sure about it AND it is available. If everyone vote today. In two days, it will be effective and some people will be screwed for a month.

It won't affect me, but I have seen enough errata affecting my characters, I don't want to see some other players being screwed because we weren't wise enough to see the hit coming.