Discussion: Use of Google Spreadsheets in Place of Wiki Character Sheets

Voda Vosa · Mar 22, 2010

Sapo Toa!

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkGZsYIgn79wdFo0c05BMklERjB

She's comming to take you...

Rapida · Mar 22, 2010

ScorpiusRisk said:
I'm a bit confused by the sheets. I'm not sure why you added so many.

Stonegod asked for one summary sheet on top. I obviously can't speak for him, but to me, there are two clear benefits to having that sheet.

1. It's should appear more familiar to people who are used to looking at the wiki sheets.

Well the Summary sheet is almost a recreation of the Wiki page down to the colors...
The math sheet was created to move things off of the summary sheet. I don't think that is particularly controversial.

The powers sheet was created so I could not worry about merging cells causing issues with ranges. It could be put back onto the main page but you end up with a super long sheet where you have to scroll down to find the relevant information.

The same can be said for the Treasure sheet. It can be put onto the summary page but you wind up getting away from the main purpose of the sheet. I tried to stay away from having multiple points to one sheet. This seems a backward way of thinking as far as organization. What good is having it all in one place when you can segregate it for ease of reading?

ScorpiusRisk said:
2. It make's it easier, and quicker to find important information.

Where are the difficulties and I will try to correct it. I was just organizing it in such a way to make easier for me to at a glance find the information I needed. Powers are under Powers tab. Judge Approvals will be under that tab, etc.

I do think the Treasures sheet needs a new name. Like inventory?

ScorpiusRisk said:
As a developer, I understand why using many sheets, and many colors, make things easier for you. As a user, I find it confusing and overwhelming. The layout, even on individual sheets, seems really different as well. I have a hard time keeping each section separate when I look at it.

I believe I added one color to the type list? Orange? I just wrote it in a more verbose manner to stop confusion and errors. I think if you look at the sheets without expecting X then it is laid out in a logical manner. Then again like you said I'm probably a bit bias like you are.

As far as layout changes what would you suggest? I didn't mean to offend by redoing what you had done, I just found it easier to try and copy the wiki sheet for the summary page. For the math page I copied the stuff you had already done and moved it. The other sheets came from the preferences of not having a single huge sheet.

To sum it all up: Not trying to offend, just wanted to help. I did so by making the changes to the sheet and would love constructive criticism or blunt suggestions on what works/doesn't work.

Dunamin · Mar 22, 2010

ScorpiusRisk said:
As a developer, I understand why using many sheets, and many colors, make things easier for you. As a user, I find it confusing and overwhelming. The layout, even on individual sheets, seems really different as well. I have a hard time keeping each section separate when I look at it.

I have to agree with this. I greatly appreciate how much work Rapida has put into his take, but it just seems more confusing than helpful.

Personally, I much prefer a minimalist approach to sheets. The basic math sheet is enough for me; a seperate visually pleasing summary sheet would be a nice bonus but is not something I feel that is needed. Color-coding also seems like it could be reduced to 3 options: Cells you don't edit, cells where you enter numbers, and cells where you enter whatever you want.

All just a personal matter of taste, of course, but there you have it.

Voda Vosa · Mar 22, 2010

Well, the sheet works properly, I made my Frogy with it and it was as the character builder presented it to me.
I would appreciate if someone could check it, to see if it's alright.

ScorpiusRisk · Mar 22, 2010

The above link does not work.

Voda Vosa · Mar 23, 2010

Strange... Lets test with this one:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkGZsYIgn79wdFo0c05BMklERjBWZ1pOQmZaVy02ZXc&hl=en

Voda Vosa · Mar 23, 2010

Oh, and surfing the D&D webpage I came with this:

Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition - » D&D 4th Edition Character Sheets

A character sheet made in excel. One can inport these files to a Google docs spreadsheet.

ScorpiusRisk · Mar 23, 2010

That link does work Voda.

I'll try and review it later, as I would a new character. That should prove insightful.

Rapida, you added six colors, if I go by your color guidelines on your instructions page. You also added ranges, and while I don't find this complicated we were trying to avoid having people use code unless necessary.

New glance over this morning, things seem less confusing to me. I think the main disconnects, as far as what I was perceiving to be confusing, are:

* In you're summary page you have things side to side now. This likely will be fine to people since they won't be comparing it to the original sheet.
* You don't keep a consistent page width.
* The open, blank fields that are not part of the usable sheet.
* The use of ranges on the user end.
* Length of the instruction page.

Rapida · Mar 23, 2010

@Voda: I would remove some of those blank lines on the power sections to make the sheet look a bit cleaner. Just keep a power section blank at the end for when you level up and need to add more powers.

ScorpiusRisk said:
That link does work Voda.
Rapida, you added six colors, if I go by your color guidelines on your instructions page. You also added ranges, and while I don't find this complicated we were trying to avoid having people use code unless necessary.

I could make all the colors that you don't type into one color if you think that will help? If you want I will add you as a contributor so you can make these changes yourself to help me out. I'd just need your google account.

As far as the ranges I believe the convenience makes up for the inconvenience of having to type =StrengthMod. Since that will keep the sheet up-to-date as you level. Which was a big problem for me on the wiki page. It didn't take long for my math stuff to get out of date.

ScorpiusRisk said:
New glance over this morning, things seem less confusing to me. I think the main disconnects, as far as what I was perceiving to be confusing, are:

* In you're summary page you have things side to side now. This likely will be fine to people since they won't be comparing it to the original sheet.

Fair enough

ScorpiusRisk said:
* You don't keep a consistent page width.

I agree, I'm guessing you are referring to the power sections? I really dislike the way the formatting came out there, and have been trying to think of way for ease of reading.

ScorpiusRisk said:
* The open, blank fields that are not part of the usable sheet.

What do you mean? The blank fields on the summary sheet? If so we could remove those or fill them with gray somehow.

ScorpiusRisk said:
* The use of ranges on the user end.

I see this as a good thing for judges and users after leveling up the character. They syntax isn't particularly horrible. I may could change the ranges to use a lookup function like I did for the weapon's grid if you think that would be a better solution. Then people would just type (say) Strength in the ability field and it would auto-fill the ability mod-number area.

ScorpiusRisk said:
* Length of the instruction page.

A lot of that is the tips and explanations for what I did. I guess we could remove those or perhaps explaining after a certain point is just suggestions and explanations of the sheet?

Also could someone look over the character sheet in my signature? I'm not sure I have the link working.

ScorpiusRisk · Mar 23, 2010

I could make all the colors that you don't type into one color if you think that will help? If you want I will add you as a contributor so you can make these changes yourself to help me out. I'd just need your google account.

As far as the ranges I believe the convenience makes up for the inconvenience of having to type =StrengthMod. Since that will keep the sheet up-to-date as you level. Which was a big problem for me on the wiki page. It didn't take long for my math stuff to get out of date.

I see this as a good thing for judges and users after leveling up the character. They syntax isn't particularly horrible. I may could change the ranges to use a lookup function like I did for the weapon's grid if you think that would be a better solution. Then people would just type (say) Strength in the ability field and it would auto-fill the ability mod-number area.

These things I don't mind too much, besides the aesthetics, because as a tech person I'm used to seeing documents like this. I just can't imagine giving a non-tech person something like this and expecting it come back correct each time.

I would love if other people would comment on this.

I agree, I'm guessing you are referring to the power sections? I really dislike the way the formatting came out there, and have been trying to think of way for ease of reading.

What do you mean? The blank fields on the summary sheet? If so we could remove those or fill them with gray somehow.

These two are actually tied together. You have lots of columns and fields that are white, that are not being used. They appear on the side and bottom of most sheets.

On summary, treasure, tracking and math, you have them between useable blocks, and/or on the side when one section or line doesn't take up the same number of fields as another section or line.

On the original, I tried to get everything to fit the same number of fields, and either filled the rest in with grey or black, or deleted them entirely. That way its absolutely clear what space is tended to be used and what isn't.

A lot of that is the tips and explanations for what I did. I guess we could remove those or perhaps explaining after a certain point is just suggestions and explanations of the sheet?

I think we should keep that as minimal as possible. Most users, theoretically, are not going to attempt to deviate from what's provided. After all they found just filling in the wiki confusing.