L4W Discussion Thread V

I'm reviewing Kauldron's ([MENTION=85506]Darksteed[/MENTION]) character sheet. I find it questionable that his weapon setup works. Can someone else weigh in on this?

Off-hand: Heavy shield
"Forearm:" Gauntlet axe
Main-hand: Rhythm blade short sword.

1. Gauntlet axe has the defensive property, which grants 1 AC when wielding the defensive weapon in one hand and wielding another melee weapon in the other hand. The axe and the dagger seem to be in the same hand here, so I don't think the bonus should apply. (The gauntlet axe must be in at least one hand, even if it keeps that hand free, otherwise defensive wouldn't apply at all.)

2. The rhythm blade's bonus to AC and reflex only applies when it is wielded in the off-hand. The heavy shield is tying up the off-hand here. The weapon setup as listed effectively uses two off-hands.

Argh. The sad thing is that, looking at the gauntlet axe's description, I not only have no idea what it does mechanically in terms of hand slots and arm slots; I have no idea what the designer meant it to do. What does a person who is using a gauntlet axe "properly" look like? The way that the description is written suggests that the object, if used as a weapon, does not occupy the arms slot, but that it also leaves a hand "free." So it occupies no space at all? Is there anything to prevent someone from using the gauntlet axe in the same "hand" as the heavy shield?

The gauntlet axe is one of those things that I always hope people will politely ignore and not use, to save us the trouble of house-ruling it so that it makes sense.

Gauntlet Axe is an arm slot item, unless enchanted as a magic weapon.

"When enchanted as a magic weapon, it does not occupy a character’s arms slot."

Gauntlet Axe could be main hand

Rhythm Blade Short Sword could be off hand

Otherwise,

Heavy Shield Main hand

Rhythm Blade Short Sword off-hand

Not sure if that answers anything, but it is my understanding.

So the exact wording on the items are this.

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Gauntlet Axe

This heavy bracer holds two light crescent blades, turning the forearm into an axe while keeping the hand free. The weapon can also serve as a light shield. A gauntlet axe can be enchanted as either an arms slot item or as a magic weapon. When enchanted as a magic weapon, it does not occupy a character’s arms slot.

Properties:
Defensive (A defensive weapon grants you a +1 bonus to AC while you wield the defensive weapon in one hand and wield another melee weapon in your other hand. Wielding more than one defensive weapon does not increase this bonus. To gain this benefit, you need not attack with the defensive weapon, but you must be proficient with it.).
Off-Hand (An off-hand weapon is light enough that you can hold it and attack effectively with it while holding a weapon in your main hand. You can’t attack with both weapons in the same turn, unless you have a power that lets you do so, but you can attack with either weapon.).


Rhythm Blade

Property
While you wield this weapon in your off hand, your shield bonus to AC and Reflex increases by 1.


Fighting Shield

Property
This shield can be used as a one-handed melee weapon with +3 proficiency, 1d6 damage, heavy blade, off-hand. It grants a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls when used as a melee weapon, and it deals 1d6 extra damage on a critical hit.

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So three weapons are off hand. The Gauntlet Axe states that if enchanted as a weapon is does not occupy the arm slot of a PC, and leaves the hand free. The Gauntlet Axe being an off-hand weapon means I can place it on my off hand. To gain the benefits of Defensive, one needs to wield another weapon in his other hand. Which will be his Fighting Heavy Shield. A weapon and a shield all in one. It now goes in his Main Hand. The Rhythm Blade Short Sword is an off-hand weapon which will go in his free hand. As he doesn't need to attack with the rhythm blade or anything, just hold it. Mechanically no different then really holding an Everburning Torch or Sunrod.

This is simply a breakdown of how I came to the conclusion of such things, and an aid into bringing the exact wording for others to light. Not arguing any points. Hopefully this helps out some.

Oh right, the Fighting Shield is why all that works. I remember now; I plan on doing something similar with Caim and her Singing Stick.

The only problem I see is that while you are wielding a Defensive weapon with another weapon in your other hand, the Defensive weapon in question is not in your hand, which the Defensive property requires in order to grant it's AC boost.

Though the Gauntlet Axe is never in your hand. So by that it would never work?

Ugh. Ladies and gentlemen, fourth edition! Working as intended.

In other words, IMO Darksteed is reading the rules correctly. In this case I think the rules are dumb, but 4e is all about literal interpretations of dumb rules even when they're dumb.

covaithe said:

Ugh. Ladies and gentlemen, fourth edition! Working as intended.

In other words, IMO Darksteed is reading the rules correctly. In this case I think the rules are dumb, but 4e is all about literal interpretations of dumb rules even when they're dumb.

Click to expand...

The only dumb rule here is the really poorly thought out Gauntlet Axe, which isn't held in your hand and for some reason has a property that only functions when it's held in your hand. It does still work as a way to wield two weapons and still have a hand free, which is very handy. (I tried to resist!)

Even if there is a dumb rule here, I think we should try to keep edition-hate at a minimum. I love 4e and my first impulse was to try to write a heated rebuttal, but I didn't because I realized that arguing about it would probably be destructive.

Imagine what Brawler fighter can do with that. He could have some passive enchant, get the benefit of defensive weapon and STILL have a hand free for his powers.

Personally, I think from martial arts experience, that anything except impaling/piercing weapons makes no sense on the arm since there is not enough leverage for the swing. Especially with weapons like axes which require heavy head to swing in fast arc.

But as the rules stand, I think Kauldron in legal because of the fighting shield...

Neurotic said:

Imagine what Brawler fighter can do with that. He could have some passive enchant, get the benefit of defensive weapon and STILL have a hand free for his powers.

Click to expand...

He doesn't get the benefit of the Defensive property because the Defensive property requires that the weapon in question be held in your hand.

The only build for which the Gauntlet Axe actually introduces a significant increase in power is the Axe Scout, who can wield a Gouge and use a Gauntlet Axe for Dual Weapon Attack. Doing so lets it compete with the Light Blade Scout up until level 10 or so, at which point it still falls behind.