L4W Discussion Thread V

duhexenhase · Mar 11, 2010

"The ice is not nice
and the fire can be dire -
oft' the 'bold pays the price
for'th gold heroes acquire"

H.M.Gimlord · Mar 11, 2010

Make your choice, adventurous stranger
Strike the bell and bide the danger
or wonder 'till it drives you mad,
what would have happened if you had.

-C.S.Lewis
The Magician's Nephew
They've GOT to make a movie of this one!

Dekana · Mar 11, 2010

duhexenhase said:
My number one question about brash strike is if the effect works even if I miss. I feel it does, and if it does, I think it's the best choice. If not Viperstrike would be nasty against goblins or kobolds and wolf-pack would play up my inherent shiftiness.

Yep, the effect happens regardless of whether or not you hit. However, your ally only gets a basic attack if your enemy chooses to take their attack - they might not. I'm not exactly sure how it interacts with your reach weapon. If your target is 2 squares away (and doesn't have reach itself), I'd say it can't choose to attack you, so your ally can't choose to get a basic attack.

duhexenhase said:
My secondary question is whether or not when I use Opening Shove on an ally if the ally can chose to not block the attack, allowing me to give it the 1 push. If I have to roll for that attack, I might be better off taking Commander's strike.

I don't know of any rule that says you can "choose to not block." Targeting an ally should be fine though since the power says "one creature." Then again, it could probably be argued that an ally doesn't offer a "meaningful threat" (to use the DMG p40 term), so the power does nothing. Imagine if a cleric's Astral Seal could be used this way: cleric seals an ally (doing no damage), then another ally chooses to use a non-damaging power on the sealed person: infinite free hp!

As for commander's strike... it's one of my favorite powers! But in Meepo's case, it doesn't synergize with the whip's -2 penalty (you have to hit the target for that to apply), and you can already grant a basic attack by using brash assault instead. Maybe Viper's Strike would be a better choice? That would work nicely with Shifty and the reach your whip gives.

renau1g · Mar 11, 2010

If they lack reach they can't attack you & I wouldn't really be keen on using the attack to push your ally, while this power isn't OP'd the combo of it + Astral Seal is not cool.

Dekana · Mar 11, 2010

I was using astral seal more for analogy than to point out any specific combo. Using astral seal on an ally is what isn't cool; I could see that applying to Opening Shove as well, or any other non-damaging power for that matter.

duhexenhase · Mar 11, 2010

The Opening Shove idea came from a blog, I believe on a site named At-Will?, which was giving examples of using combat powers in non combat situations. The example was pushing a child out of the middle of a street before a driverless carriage smashed into her. I thought it might have been a wormy issue, but even without it, with my reach on whip I could push a bad guy and allow an ally to come up to cover for me, allowing that ally the effective +2 to defenses against the creature I rebuked, or an attack of the ally is close. And, if I read the PHB correctly, I don't have to push the the target (Like, I can make the push zero). That way I can stand behind a meat shield, whip a badguy, grant my shield +2 defense, and allow the shield to make a basic attack. Right?

As for Brash Attack, the only way the enemy would be able to make its attack against me would be to move into it's range. I wasn't thinking that I could use my whip for that level of cheese. I chose it because it targets ref, which I'm hoping will be in most cases lower than Armor, and because I think it fits my character idea. I can see him moving towards a tough, slapping it with the whip for minimal damage, and then trying to flee. The whip would improve cancel out his bonus to hit from combat advantage and, hopefully, a rogue character would be able to get his sneak attack on.

Opening Shove would be my bread and butter. An attempt to add a bit of pushing control and extra movement for my allies in place of the +3 damage for Commander's Strike. I think it'd add some versatility, but it might not be worth it in pbp?

Even if I did drop one of my at wills for Viper's Strike, I'd want to drop it eventually when kobolds and goblins stop being primary enemies.

Also, I do want to say that I love Commander's strike. In my tabletop group I had one player who really only plays because he's a good friend and it helps to round out the party. From AD&D, to 3e, all he would ever play was the same elven ranger. But, I made him a warlord when 4e came out, and he was brilliant in the role.