Proposal: Replace Expertise Related House Rule with Feat Slot

evilbob · Mar 18, 2010

Yeah, I think that's almost a separate issue: allowing a free feat slot at level 5 seems ok because of what I said above. Allowing a free feat slot at level 1 is problematic.

For one thing, there's nothing stopping someone from taking a "free" feat at level 1 and then retraining it to something else when they can get the more advantageous expertise feat.

I'd be in favor of "free expertise-style feat at level 5" but not more than that.

renau1g · Mar 18, 2010

I agree with you Cov. Adding the +1 to hit at the low levels is problematic enough, that's why I liked the +1 at 5th/15th/25th, not at 1st. As I said elec, there's a smaller portion who would rather use their feats for other purposes, but like the Iron Armbands of Power/Bracers of Archery, this flavourless feat is the best bang for your buck for most PC's.

So I'm not ok with giving out an extra feat as we already give out a huge power increase for 3 extra points in L4W. That's already nearly a 15% increase in starting abilities over core PC's, but it's nice because it can encourage non-traditional PC's as they have a bit more help to cover their deficiency in lining up scores with their class.

So I'll vote on Option B right now NO to the free feat.

However I'm still leaning towards yes on A, just not 100% yet. It does hurt some builds, which sucks because players might have gone with them thinking that they would have the benefit of the flat bonus here (I'm thinking Paladins, melee clerics, can't think of others off the top of my head).

Kalidrev · Mar 18, 2010

I think I was correctly quoted, but slightly misinterpreted (either that or my wording was simply not clear enough, lol), but what I was saying was that you should get a free feat at 5th level ONLY if you were to take an Expertise type feat BEFORE 5th level. This way, people didn't get screwed out of their free feat at 5th level, just because they wanted a touch more accuracy before 5th.

Now, both Cov and Ren have complained about Expertise feats making PCs too powerful at levels 1-4, but I disagree. I don't think an extra 5% to hit is going to be that big of a deal (it's only a difference of 1 number on the d20), especially since it will mean that they WONT be taking another feat that could increase damage or give more versatility. Either way, it kind of balances out.

WOTC doesn't seem to have a problem with people taking it at 1st level (otherwise there would be some kind of restriction or prerequisites on it), so why not allow it?

I vote YES to both A AND B with the contingency that the free feat from B ONLY be allowed if/when the character has taken an Expertise feat BEFORE level 5.

evilbob · Mar 18, 2010

You know I could have sworn that the expertise feats didn't kick in until 5th level? I just looked it up, tho, and you're right: they work at level 1. They just don't increase until 15/25.

Yeah, then I guess a free level 1 feat would be ok with me, too. In fact, now I will watch this thread closely because my character will switch to an expertise feat immediately to get the +1 if approved.

Moon_Goddess · Mar 18, 2010

Watching this thread... just created Saraz at 5th and didn't take the +1 or the feat for her as I wasn't sure what the final result will be, I'll get her corrected when we know

covaithe · Mar 18, 2010

Kalidrev said:
Now, both Cov and Ren have complained about Expertise feats making PCs too powerful at levels 1-4, but...

Can't speak for r1, but it wasn't really a complaint, on my part. I don't mind at all having another reason to make my monsters tougher and deadlier. :devil:

renau1g · Mar 18, 2010

Kalidrev said:
WOTC doesn't seem to have a problem with people taking it at 1st level (otherwise there would be some kind of restriction or prerequisites on it), so why not allow it?

But they also don't have a 25 point buy which already bumps up everyone by 15% power level.

As I mentioned before I don't really like giving a bonus feat out at 1st as there's two problems with it. It minimizes one of the benefits humans get over the other races with their bonus feat vs. two ability score bumps & it adds unnecessary power creep into the game that the enemies haven't been compensated for.

As a DM I can just bump up my monsters, but if someone's not keeping an eye on it then it might be difficult, especially for first time L4W DM's who maybe aren't used to the more powerful PC's here

Kalidrev · Mar 18, 2010

I wasn't talking about giving out a feat at 1st level. I just think that there shouldn't be a restriction on WHEN we take the Expertise feat. The only free feat should come at 5th level, when you should be given the Expertise feat for free if you don't already have it, or you should be able to take any other feat you qualify for if you have already taken Expertise with your normal feats before 5th level. I agree that giving a free feat away at 1st level would be unbalancing to beginning characters.

evilbob · Mar 18, 2010

Kalidrev said:
I wasn't talking about giving out a feat at 1st level. I just think that there shouldn't be a restriction on WHEN we take the Expertise feat. The only free feat should come at 5th level, when you should be given the Expertise feat for free if you don't already have it, or you should be able to take any other feat you qualify for if you have already taken Expertise with your normal feats before 5th level. I agree that giving a free feat away at 1st level would be unbalancing to beginning characters.

I don't know that this position has been spelled out so simply yet in this thread; this is the position I agree with now as well.

covaithe · Mar 18, 2010

So, if I remember correctly, the reason we monkeyed with the expertise feats in the first place, lo these many months ago, was that we felt that using a feat to patch the "math problem" would lead to less diverse characters, because (nearly) everyone would take it at level 1. The phrase "feat tax" was bandied about.

The free-feat-at-5 proposal doesn't completely address that problem, IMO. It's okay as far as the "feat tax" argument is concerned, but many players will still choose to forgo diversity in favor of +1 to hit at level 1. It might improve diversity among characters over level 5, but in PbP, that's a long time to wait.