Ultimate Magus Augmented Casting. Increased casting time?

Herzog · Mar 23, 2010

The Ultimate Magus can apply metamagic feats in a special way:
by spending a spell(slot) of one class, he can apply a metamagic feat to a spell from his other class.

Of course, there are all kinds of restrictions and rules, but:

Since this is being applied 'spontaneous', does this mean it takes a full round action to cast a spell in this way?

I'm inclined to say yes, since I can find no ruling this type of spontenous metamagic is any different from 'normal' spontaneous metamagic, but I would love for someone to point me in the direction of a ruling that says the casting time doesn't increase....

Dandu · Mar 23, 2010

At a guess, I'd say it's a full round action.

Note, however, having spontaneous metamagic cost a full round action was a stupid idea to begin with.

AbyssKnight · Mar 24, 2010

Well, nothing in the ability actually states that it is necessarily spontaneous.

So I would say, the prepared side would memorize the spell as normal, but in the normal level instead of higher level spell slot. Then you would just have fewer corresponding spontaneous spell slots for the day.

Conversely, the spontaneous side would apply the metamagic spontaneously, as a full round action (or normal casting time with Rapid Metamagic), and burn a corresponding prepared spell that has been memorized.

Example, a Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10 casts as Wizard 11/Sorcerer 11 (without Practiced Caster trick).

So he casts 6th level prepared spells, and 5th level spontaneous spells.

While memorizing spells for the day, he could memorize a Empowered Fireball in a 3rd level prepared slot. In exchange, he has 1 less 2nd level spontaneous spell slot that day.

Herzog · Mar 24, 2010

While memorizing spells for the day, he could memorize a Empowered Fireball in a 3rd level prepared slot. In exchange, he has 1 less 2nd level spontaneous spell slot that day.

That sounds reasonable, but the class feature has this to say:

This sacrificed spell or slot is lost (just as if you had cast the spell) in addition to the spell you are actually casting.

Which talks about the process of actually casting the spell. Not preparing it.

I'm considering replacing my Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level (from Races of the Dragon) with a 'normal' sorcerer level and taking the Metamagic Specialist ACF (from Player Handbook 2) to avoid increased casting times.

But I won't if I don't have to....

irdeggman · Mar 24, 2010

It seems to me that this ability acually is designed to apply to the "fixed" casting side, since the spontaneous casting side can already do it w/i the rules.

So the cost for applying this to the "fixed" side is the loss of the extra spell slot, but no additional casting time.

Technically you could apply it to the spontaneous side, but why would you unless you wanted to lose a higher level spell from the "fixed" side that was memorized and you thought would be useless this day.

The rule on sponateous casting and metamagic feats is not about spontaneous applying metamagic feats but rather about applying metamagic feats to spontaneously cast spells.

PHB pg 88

Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats: A cleric spontaneously
casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version
of it instead. For instance, an 11th-level cleric can swap out a
prepared 6th-level spell to cast an empowered cure critical wounds
spell. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a 1-action
metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell
with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast.

Herzog · Mar 24, 2010

It seems to me that this ability acually is designed to apply to the "fixed" casting side, since the spontaneous casting side can already do it w/i the rules.

Can you elaborate? Either you're misinterpreting the ability, or I'm misinterpreting you:

The ability allows you to spend the spell level increase as a different spell slot. (so, instead of casting Extended Mage Armor as a second level spell, you cast it as two first level spells, one from each of your arcane classes)

The rule on sponateous casting and metamagic feats is not about spontaneous applying metamagic feats but rather about applying metamagic feats to spontaneously cast spells.

Ah. but is casting a metamagic version of a spell you had prepared as a 'normal' version of the spell not a spontaneous casting?

I know I'm being hard on myself, but I just like to have a solid reason not to have to take Metamagic Specialist.

Corsair · Mar 24, 2010

First, I've always hated the idea of extended casting times for the spontaneous casters using metamagic. I'll make that clear now.

Second: our group has never used extended casting times with either metamagic rods or augmented casting (I am currently playing a an UM)

Third: If you were going to apply the extended casting time to augmented casting, I would only apply it to the spontaneous caster side.

irdeggman said:
Technically you could apply it to the spontaneous side, but why would you unless you wanted to lose a higher level spell from the "fixed" side that was memorized and you thought would be useless this day.

Actually that is exactly why you'd do it. I am playing a 10th level UM right now who casts as a Beguiler 4/wizard 9. I took quicken spell solely so I could burn a 4th level wizard slot to quicken a 1st or 2nd level beguiler spell. (I added defensive buffs through expanded knowledge, and never underestimate the worth of a quickened see invisibility or glitterdust)

irdeggman · Mar 24, 2010

Herzog said:
Can you elaborate? Either you're misinterpreting the ability, or I'm misinterpreting you:

The ability allows you to spend the spell level increase as a different spell slot. (so, instead of casting Extended Mage Armor as a second level spell, you cast it as two first level spells, one from each of your arcane classes)

Nope

You spend the spell you are casting and you spend a spell slot of the appropriate level (i.e., after spell level adjustment) of a different class.

So you spend 2 spell slots to cast a single spell, one of the metamagiced level and the other the "normal" spell,

. .. you can choose to sacrifice a spell or spell slot from one of your classes to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know to cast using another arcane class.

. . . .this sacrificed spell or slot is lost (just as if you had cast the spell) in addition to the spell you are actually casting.

. . . The level of the spell slot sacrificed must equal or exceed the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat.

In you example you lose a 1st level spell (mage armor)

and

a 2nd level spell slot from a different arcane casting class in order to power it.

irdeggman · Mar 24, 2010

Herzog said:
Ah. but is casting a metamagic version of a spell you had prepared as a 'normal' version of the spell not a spontaneous casting?

That is not what the RAW says it is clear that it about applying metamagic feats to spontaneous spells not adding metamagic feats spontaneously.

There is a difference and in this case it is important since the class doesn't specify that it requires extra casting tome to do it.

Herzog · Mar 25, 2010

In you example you lose a 1st level spell (mage armor)

and

a 2nd level spell slot from a different arcane casting class in order to power it.

No, you don't.

You loose a 1st level spell (mage armor)

and

a first level spell from a different arcane casting class, of the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat: +1.
(Note the word adjustment )

An Empowered fireball would require a 3rd level spell( fireball) and a 2nd level spell (Empower)

A Maximized Fireball would require a 3rd level spell (fireball) and another 3rd level spell (Maximize).