D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Melee Rogue Build (now with extra feats!)

Hi!
It may seem like this post is a big wall of text (and it is), but the truth is that I like to go for quick sections. It's going to be less painful than it seems!

I'm going to start a new campaign, and I decided to go for a rogue.
Our DM decided to bring some Pathfinder rules and classes in the campaign: one of these is the feat gain at every odd level.

So I play a rogue who can have a feat at every level, as I can use Pathfinder's rogue, as long as I choose feats that exist in 3.5, even for my rogue ones.

My party has a Sorcerer (that will multiclass to Dracolexi), a Druid (that wants to be an Arcane Hierophant) and an Assassin / bunch of fighting classes.

I want to do a two weapon fighting rogue (nothing new), but I don't really want to optimize it to the death. I was thinking about a simple Rogue 5 / Invisible Blade 5 / Rogue +15.

I may accept other builds, but nothing too strange (so no, I won't take a monk level or an extremely complicated group of classes).

So, straight to my questions:
1) Which race should I choose?
2) Which feats?

I can use all 3.5 and Pathfinder's books...to be honest, everything that hasn't been houseruled is fine to my DM.

RACES
We are going to play in an evil campaign, starting from the underground, so no pretty elves.
Starting level will be around 3/4, so we can choose races that have lep > 0.

I was thinking about those races (I report them so you don't have to go look in all manuals, but I'll write down just important features):

- Tiefling

Tieflings have +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, +2 on bluff and hide checks, some resistances, outsider type and its favored class is rogue, at a LEP +1 price.
I don't like losing charisma for a rogue, but I guess it's ok.


- Drow

Drows get +2 to Dex, Int and Cha and a -2 Cos. SR, +2 to spot, listen and search, some magics...but his favored class is wizard and has LEP +2.
A pain in the ass if my DM plays multiclassing by the rules.


- Shadowswyft (Planar Handbook)

Shadowswyfts get +2 dex, -2 con, outsider type, 40 feet base speed, +2 on initiative checks, +4 on hide and move silently checks, favored class is rogue all for a LEP +1.
Nice!


- Chitine (Underdark)

Chitines get +2 Dex, +2 Cos, +2 Int, -4 Cha, small size, +8 on climb checks (plus the ability to climb on ceilings, which is cool for a stealth pc), +2D8 HD, +2 BAB, +3 on Will and Reflex checks, +5x(2+int) skill points, bonus feat, bonus Multiweapon Fighting (which I may trade for something else, as it doesn't exist anymore), favored class rogue and LEP +2.
Great race, if it wasn't for that -4 to Charisma.

- Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone)

WGs get +2 to Dex and Con, -2 to Cha and Str, small size (but 30 feet speed), +4 to Hide checks (to a total of +8, considering it's small), +4 on Move Silently checks, +2 on Listen and Spot checks, some magic, favored class is rogue and no LEP.
With the Titan Fighting feat on this race I'd add the +4 dodge to AC to an enemy which is at least one size larger than me (so, most of the encounters).



I can't think of any other race. If you think you have something else to show me, let me know!


FEATS

That's where I don't really know what to do. I mean, I have to choose 13 regular feats, 4 rogue feats and 6 advanced rogue feats.

I was thinking of (I'll mark with an * those I can take with my rogue bonus feats, ** if they are in the advanced list):

Two Weapons Fighting *
Fast Stealth *
Titan Fighting (if Whisper Gnome)
Opportunist ** (good for flanking)
Weapon Finesse *
Improved Initiative *
Weapon Focus (dagger) *
Quick Draw *


Here is a feat gaining table if I go with the Rogue 5 / IB 5 / Rogue +15:
F= Feat, R= Rogue Feat, A= Advanced Rogue Feat

Rogue
1. F: TWF
2. R: Weapon Finesse
3. F: Improved Initiative
4. R: Fast Stealth
5. F: Weapon Focus (Dagger)
Invisible Blade
6.
7. F: Quick Draw (+ Hidden Blade skill trick)
8.
9. F
10.
Rogue
11. F, R
12.
13. F, R
14.
15. F, A: Opportunist

What else should I take? In which order?

Which items should I consider?
I guess something that boosts AC, as I'll have no armor!

Thanks for your help, and sorry if this post is "a tad big".
Also, sorry for my english!

Invisible Blade really isn't thatgreat a class. If you're going out of Rogue, consider a 2 level Swordsage dip at levels 9-10 or 8-9. For prestige classes, I like Master Thrower (C.Warrior) or Whisperknife (Races of the Wild, Halfling only), but both are throwing oriented.

Titan Fighting: AFAIK, you actually need a source of dodge bonus to replace with the racial +4. Normally this would be the Dodge feat itself (and if you can use the PF versio nthat benefits against all, go for it), but that's only one enemy, kind of stinky for two feats. I like to get Desert Wind Dodge (Tome of Battle), which counts as dodge and gives it against all enemies. You just need to move 10 ft before it activates (you also need to know a Desert Wind maneuver, which you can get from swordsage levels).

Every melee rogue should have Staggering Strike from C.Adventurer. Unlike most "ambush" feats, it doesn't reduce your SA damage at all, the fort save DC is very high (damage dealt), and by staggering the enemy and denying him a full attack to retaliate on you...you can actually survive in melee.

Savvy Rogue (C.Scoundrel) at levels 11+ is nice, to give extra benefits to whatever Rogue special abilities you have as well as the ones you pick up later.

Deadly Defense (S.Scoundrel) is +1d6 damage if you fight defensively, and can apply on both weapons for TWF.

The Craven feat (Champions of Ruin?) is just plain crazy. Adds your level (not rogue level, character level) to your sneak attack damage. Crazy!

For race, I like Whisper Gnomes a lot, and it's the best of the ones you listed. Anything with LA is generally bad (the Dark template for +1 LA is sometimes worth it). Anything with racial HD is to be avoided like the plague. Bad like with LA in delaying class level progressions, but even worse...if you're using the 3E skill system, you just screwed yourself out of the x4 skills at level one, which as a skill monkey char, kinda really sucks. If it's using PF skills system, less of an issue.

Other races: Changeling can be fun, especially for doing a social skills rogue and using the Races of Eberron level 1 racial sub. level (note that Changeling racial sub. levels get 10 + int skill points, so you get an added bonus of getting 4x that number with the level 1 selection).
I think it was in dragon mag somewhere, I saw it on crystalkeep...anyway, dwarf rogues have a bunch of racial sub levels that give bonus damage against constructs and lose absolutely nothing. Makes one of the tougher foes for a Rogue easier to handle.
There's a Halfling variant called Strongheart halflings that get a bonus feat like humans do. I think that's in the FR setting books, not too familiar. But the character optimization thread seems to love them.

StreamOfTheSky said:

Invisible Blade really isn't thatgreat a class. If you're going out of Rogue, consider a 2 level Swordsage dip at levels 9-10 or 8-9. For prestige classes, I like Master Thrower (C.Warrior) or Whisperknife (Races of the Wild, Halfling only), but both are throwing oriented.

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In fact, I had doubts about Invisible Blade...especially for the fact that I can't use any other weapon than a dagger.
But what about Uncanny Feint and the likes?
Should I get the Improved Feint feat (but forget about hitting with both my weapons)?
Also, I can't do a throwing oriented pc as we have no tank / real fighter, so I'll likely be more than often in melee fights.

By the way: why Swordsage? I'm not really familiar with the Tome of Battle and 3.5 melee classes, so I'd like to have an explanation.

StreamOfTheSky said:

Titan Fighting: AFAIK, you actually need a source of dodge bonus to replace with the racial +4. Normally this would be the Dodge feat itself (and if you can use the PF versio nthat benefits against all, go for it), but that's only one enemy, kind of stinky for two feats. I like to get Desert Wind Dodge (Tome of Battle), which counts as dodge and gives it against all enemies. You just need to move 10 ft before it activates (you also need to know a Desert Wind maneuver, which you can get from swordsage levels).

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Even if it is against only one enemy, I like Titan Fighting because I can focus on dodging the big guy hits while I focus on killing his lower level minions.
But of course the Desert Wind Dodge is very useful, especially because it makes me "retrain" the dodge feat (so I can take it earlier).

StreamOfTheSky said:

Every melee rogue should have Staggering Strike from C.Adventurer. Unlike most "ambush" feats, it doesn't reduce your SA damage at all, the fort save DC is very high (damage dealt), and by staggering the enemy and denying him a full attack to retaliate on you...you can actually survive in melee.

Click to expand...

That is great, truly truly great!

StreamOfTheSky said:

Savvy Rogue (C.Scoundrel) at levels 11+ is nice, to give extra benefits to whatever Rogue special abilities you have as well as the ones you pick up later.

Deadly Defense (S.Scoundrel) is +1d6 damage if you fight defensively, and can apply on both weapons for TWF.

The Craven feat (Champions of Ruin?) is just plain crazy. Adds your level (not rogue level, character level) to your sneak attack damage. Crazy!

Click to expand...

Savvy Rogue is really good (Str damage even to those who can't take critical hits? Oh god this is good!), Deadly Defense is ok.
I forgot about Craven, thanks about that info, too.

StreamOfTheSky said:

For race, I like Whisper Gnomes a lot, and it's the best of the ones you listed. Anything with LA is generally bad (the Dark template for +1 LA is sometimes worth it). Anything with racial HD is to be avoided like the plague. Bad like with LA in delaying class level progressions, but even worse...if you're using the 3E skill system, you just screwed yourself out of the x4 skills at level one, which as a skill monkey char, kinda really sucks. If it's using PF skills system, less of an issue.

Other races: Changeling can be fun, especially for doing a social skills rogue and using the Races of Eberron level 1 racial sub. level (note that Changeling racial sub. levels get 10 + int skill points, so you get an added bonus of getting 4x that number with the level 1 selection).
I think it was in dragon mag somewhere, I saw it on crystalkeep...anyway, dwarf rogues have a bunch of racial sub levels that give bonus damage against constructs and lose absolutely nothing. Makes one of the tougher foes for a Rogue easier to handle.
There's a Halfling variant called Strongheart halflings that get a bonus feat like humans do. I think that's in the FR setting books, not too familiar. But the character optimization thread seems to love them.

Click to expand...

I like Whisper Gnomes too, but I still don't know if my master will let me play as one. He is pretty strict with races as he don't like anything that is out of place (like Ninjas in a non-oriental setting).

About Changelings' substitution level...I'm very doubtful.
It's a great substitution level...except that it takes away trapfinding ability, which isn't great.


Thanks a lot, helpful as always ^^

Viandante said:

In fact, I had doubts about Invisible Blade...especially for the fact that I can't use any other weapon than a dagger.
But what about Uncanny Feint and the likes?
Should I get the Improved Feint feat (but forget about hitting with both my weapons)?
Also, I can't do a throwing oriented pc as we have no tank / real fighter, so I'll likely be more than often in melee fights.

Click to expand...

Throwing is often pretty up close, but point taken. Note that Uncanny Feint was errata'd to only be once/round (yeah, that sucks). I will point out a level 1 divination spell in Spell Compendium (name escapes me) which casts as a swift ction and improves your feinting by one action (w/ Imp. Feint it becomes a free action next attempt). You might want to look into multiclassing 1 level into Diviner specialist wizard and then going into Unseen Seer (C.Mage). Full casting progression, and +4d6 SA by level 10, with 6 + int skill points.

Viandante said:

By the way: why Swordsage? I'm not really familiar with the Tome of Battle and 3.5 melee classes, so I'd like to have an explanation.

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Swordsage dip gives many benefits to a Rogue. First of all, Cloak of Deception (Shadow Hand, level 2) and Distracting Ember (Desert Wind, level 1) are both boosts to give you sneak attack reliably. The former gives you greater invisibility until end of turn, the latter gives you a flanking buddy. Both are swift actions. Shadow Hand also has Assassin's Stance (level 3), which is +2d6 sneak attack. So for 2 levels out of rogue, you get the sneak attack of 4 rogue levels. Why two levels? At Swordsage 1, you have to select a level 1 stance, thus you need to go 2 levels in for the second stance (or spend a feat on it, but I prefer to just go 2 levels). The level 1 Shadow Hand stances are both good. Island of Blades makes flanking easier; Child of Shadow synergizes well with Desert Wind Dodge, if using it, to give 20% concealment when you move 10+ ft a round. In any case, Swordsage ALSO makes it easy to qualify for Shadow Blade, to add dex to melee damage while in a shadow hand stance (and using a shadow hand weapon, which is mostly daggers and such).
Your other maneuvers known can also be useful, I only named 2 must haves out of the 7 you'll get. Sudden Leap in particular is nice to move and full attack in one turn. The reason to dip at level 9 is so that your IL is 5 (half of rogue 8 + Swordsage 1), the level that level 3 maneuvers become available. You could also do the first level in Swordsage earlier, and get the 2nd when you'd become IL 5.

Viandante said:

That is great, truly truly great!

Click to expand...

Viandante said:

Savvy Rogue is really good (Str damage even to those who can't take critical hits? Oh god this is good!), Deadly Defense is ok.
I forgot about Craven, thanks about that info, too.

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I also really like the Opportunist and Skill Mastery benefits for Savvy Rogue, those are my 3 favorites.

Viandante said:

I like Whisper Gnomes too, but I still don't know if my master will let me play as one. He is pretty strict with races as he don't like anything that is out of place (like Ninjas in a non-oriental setting).

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Whisper Gnomes aren't particularly exotic. And while some people call them broken, they're no better at being Rogues than dwarves are at being Fighters. I really will never understand how someone can think "Dwarf = fine, Whisper Gnome = OMG Game Breaker!" Up to your DM, of course. Hopefully he's open to it.

Viandante said:

About Changelings' substitution level...I'm very doubtful.
It's a great substitution level...except that it takes away trapfinding ability, which isn't great.

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Some groups don't need Trapfinding as much as others. If you don't think traps will be very important, it's a good trade, I was just pointing it out.

StreamOfTheSky said:

Throwing is often pretty up close, but point taken. Note that Uncanny Feint was errata'd to only be once/round (yeah, that sucks). I will point out a level 1 divination spell in Spell Compendium (name escapes me) which casts as a swift ction and improves your feinting by one action (w/ Imp. Feint it becomes a free action next attempt). You might want to look into multiclassing 1 level into Diviner specialist wizard and then going into Unseen Seer (C.Mage). Full casting progression, and +4d6 SA by level 10, with 6 + int skill points.

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Thanks for the advice - but I'm already doing a spell caster in another campaign, and I wanted to play a melee character.
Not that I refuse a couple of magic tricks up my sleeve (damn, I'll use as many wands as I'll run into!), but I'm not interested in another full casting character.

StreamOfTheSky said:

Swordsage dip gives many benefits[CUT]

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Thanks a lot, I'm learning a lot of useful things ^^

StreamOfTheSky said:

I also really like the Opportunist and Skill Mastery benefits for Savvy Rogue, those are my 3 favorites.

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Didn't mention those because they were obvious XD

StreamOfTheSky said:

Whisper Gnomes aren't particularly exotic. And while some people call them broken, they're no better at being Rogues than dwarves are at being Fighters. I really will never understand how someone can think "Dwarf = fine, Whisper Gnome = OMG Game Breaker!" Up to your DM, of course. Hopefully he's open to it.

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My DM isn't bothered by game-breaking things, but he truly hates everything that just doesn't fit in. E.G.: He banned every oriental class and prc, unless we'll travel that far just to learn them.
Oh, and he banned psionics, but who doesn't?

StreamOfTheSky said:

Some groups don't need Trapfinding as much as others. If you don't think traps will be very important, it's a good trade, I was just pointing it out.

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Of course, and I'm very grateful for that. You point it out, I think about it and then just tell you if I think it's good or not.


Again, thank you for all the help you are giving to me.

craven
martial study -> martial stance (assassin's stance) [tome of battle]
craven
acf: penetrating strike [dungeonscape]
craven
dual strike
craven
bounding assault
craven

but i recommend to take arcane spellcasting classes and have access to invisibility/greater invisibility/true seeing/persistent blade/wraithstrike
and then you can take the hunter's eye spell with advanced learning (unseen seer) and arcane strike

My DM told me I can do a Whisper Gnome, but I can't take the Swordsage.

But I can do the Swashbuckler, which is good.
Any advice if I plan to follow the rogue / swashbuckler path?

parinho7 said:

craven
martial study -> martial stance (assassin's stance) [tome of battle]
craven
acf: penetrating strike [dungeonscape]
craven
dual strike
craven
bounding assault
craven

but i recommend to take arcane spellcasting classes and have access to invisibility/greater invisibility/true seeing/persistent blade/wraithstrike
and then you can take the hunter's eye spell with advanced learning (unseen seer) and arcane strike

Click to expand...

I'll take Craven, point taken XD

By the way, I think you didn't read my posts (and I don't think I can blame you, I wrote way too many things):
I'm ok with some magic tricks, but I won't take too many spellcaster levels, even if Unseen Seer helps a lot.
I'll get a Wraithstrike weapon ASAP, but I'm not going to be a spellcaster myself. We already have two spellcasters (a druid and a sorcerer) and I think I'll buy some pearls of power for them to use on spells on me.

Any advice if I plan to follow the rogue / swashbuckler path?

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acf: arcane stunt[expeditious retreat] (complete mage)
expenditious dodge (races of the wild)

skill tricks:
group fake out
extreme leap

here's a thought:
karmic strike + group fake out (feint as free action from inv blade) + combat reflexes

Getting Shadow Blade purely via feats might still be worth it if you have a high dex. Especially if you can hold out long enough to qualify for cloak of deception as your Shadow Hand maneuver (Martial Stance requires Martial Study or a maneuver known) and Assassin's Stance for your stance. Without Swordsage, your initiator level (IL) is half your HD, so you need IL 3 (6 HD) for Cloak of Deception and IL 5 (10 HD) for Assassin's Stance. Then you can get a nifty 1/encounter round of sneak attacking, +2d6 SA damage all the time, and can then go on to get Shadow Blade if you want.

Swashbuckler works well with Rogue, just get the Daring Outlaw feat so you lose no sneak attack. Absolutely trade the crapy Grace class feature for Arcane Stunt (C.Mage, requires 1 rank in know arcana). Being able to become blurred or gain +30 ft speed for a round as a swift action a few times/day is much more fun and useful. See if you can get Swashbuckler's Dodge class feature to count as the feat, to use with Titan Fighting, and save you a feat. If the DM says no, not sure you should bother going past Swash 3, even with the multiclass feat.

One feat I forgot: Improved Buckler Defense from C.Warrior, so you can use a buckler and still TWF. Annoyingly, I don't think it removes the -1 attack penalty from the buckler, and feats are precious (even with them every odd level). Once you can afford a +3 shield, an animated shield is better. Retrain if allowed, or don't take the feat to begin with, just mentioning.

Random idea: Look at the Blade Bravo prestige class in Races of Stone. It's realy not that useful for a sneak attacker, but...it's a cool class.

I'll tell my DM about the ACF, it's absolutely more useful than the grace bonus.

I don't really like the Expeditious Dodge feat, as it's useless once in the fight.

I'll think about Shadow Blade when I'll write down some kind of feat progression table, so I can see how many feats I can give to the Shadow Blade path.

I'll absolutely get Daring Outlaw.

I asked my DM about Swashbuckler's dodge to count as a feat and his retraining rules, I'll let you know.


Sorry if I didn't take time to quote everything, but it's almost 5AM here and I really need to go to bed.
See you tomorrow, thanks both of you for the help.

EDIT: Forgot to talk about the Blade Bravo prc. It is good, to be honest. It's useful for a small sneak attacker because not only it increases dodge bonuses, has a full BAB progression and gives out three bonus feats (and we effing love feats, don't we?) but it also gives you Lethal riposte if you plan on taking all ten levels.
So, everytime someone misses me in melee not only I have an attack of opportunity, but they also lose their dex to ac, which means a free sneak attack. "Rogue candy" is my only comment here.
Damn, one could make a whole build focusing on improving AC around this prc!
But I don't know when I should take it.
Maybe a build like Rogue 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue +9 / Blade Bravo 10 could work?
Taking Opportunist at level 9 and the Combat Reflexes feat I could make a good melee rogue, attacking way more than once per round!

Ok, now I'm falling asleep. I don't even want to reread this, so please forgive me if I wrote something inconsistent.
Also, let me know how could I squeeze ten levels of Blade Bravo in my build and if I should do it, as I really like it.

Now I'll go to bed for real. Goodnight...or have a nice day, whatever your time zone is!