Discussion: Devils and Demons in L4W Cosmology

ScorpiusRisk · Mar 25, 2010

Are we in agreement here? It seems like people are agreeing but I'm not sure.

I don't think anyone's proposing to change stats. I believe we're just discussing flavor. On that note it sounds like Oni are related/associated with demons.

If some people group them together and some people don't I don't see that as unrealistic. I would expect most people from KoJ to refer to any demon as an Oni. Then again I think it would be realistic for someone from Daunton to encounter an actual Oni and refer to it as a demon, even someone who is learned.

Raiko, my Jade Paladin, who is trained and sworn to fight Oni views demons in the same light. I believe I have had him use the word interchangeably but I was viewing that as a cultural thing, rather than a statement of fact.

As far as devils are concerned, as a DM, I'd like to use the archdevils. WotC did not create them; they are not their property. There's allot to use there and I don't think we should tell people not to use them, we should just leave off some of their D&D specific fluff.

I also like the basic idea of the Adversary. Like a great shadowy figure, opposed but need as a balance. Perhaps the other archdevils don't fall into a formal power structure but they all recognize the power and will of the adversary as great.

Fragsie · Mar 25, 2010

I thought it prudent to mention that simply through the evolution of L4W, a sort of grand enemy has grown in the form of Zal'Ekthees. He seems to have become the evil force behind a large number of different adventures, has his fingers in a lot of pies so-to-speak. Could he be the Adversary's top dog, or perhaps even secret a pseudonym?

ScorpiusRisk · Mar 25, 2010

Is he in the wiki? I don't know this name. I know a little about Mr. X as well as Rinch the Riser.

renau1g · Mar 25, 2010

He's the force behind Mr.X in my "Crimelord" game as well as another game (cov's?). Being already there, he might make a good evil villian, but I always thought him lower than archdevil, maybe pit-fiend level?

Anyways, he could make a good lieutenant for Adversary, maybe one of his more powerful proxies, although it's not exactly subtle (see Crimelord for details

)

covaithe · Mar 25, 2010

renau1g said:
He's the force behind Mr.X in my "Crimelord" game as well as another game (cov's?). Being already there, he might make a good evil villian, but I always thought him lower than archdevil, maybe pit-fiend level?

Anyways, he could make a good lieutenant for Adversary, maybe one of his more powerful proxies, although it's not exactly subtle (see Crimelord for details )

Yeah, I see Zal'Ekthees as middle management, not one of the top dogs. Maybe he once was, and has fallen on hard times? Or maybe he just likes to tell his followers that.

Mal Malenkirk · Mar 25, 2010

Eh. Never heard of Zal'Ekthees but I used 'The Usurper', a Tharizdun type in two different adventures (and Rinch, one of his servants, has been mentioned in 4 adventures by now including to my pride and joy by a different DM than me).

We need some secret DM convention to reach a consensus on the great evil forces in the land or we'll end up with so many that they all will be considered 'thugs of the week' by players!

Regarding the Adversary cum promethean figure:

Well, 'Satan' is derived from the 'The Adversary' in old hebrew and Lucifer is notoriously christianity's take on Prometheus. We're not reinventing the wheel, here. No question in my mind that Twoheadsbarking knows that.

So am I knocking the suggestion off? Heck no! I love it. It's warm, fuzzy and familiar. Everyone will have a fair idea of how to run Luci... I mean The Adversary. It will give us one arch-enemy that will get fairly homegeneous treatments over all adventures.

Maybe we should come together to hash out four or five archetypical, Uber-Evil figures, ideally match them with pre-existing adventures. Then we strongly encourage DMs to pick one of these when they need some powerful behind the scene epic type evil force. We create pages for them and we ask DMs to edit in any new development concerning them.

renau1g · Mar 25, 2010

Mal Malenkirk said:
We need some secret DM convention to reach a consensus on the great evil forces in the land or we'll end up with so many that they all will be considered 'thugs of the week' by players!

Only if we have it in Montreal during the summer, maybe during FestiBlues?

I love that city during the summer, I used to go on a bi-monthly basis for work.

ScorpiusRisk · Mar 25, 2010

That sounds strangely appealing. I don't suppose anyone's going to PAXEast?

Mal Malenkirk · Mar 25, 2010

renau1g said:
Only if we have it in Montreal during the summer, maybe during FestiBlues?

I love that city during the summer, I used to go on a bi-monthly basis for work.

Well, I prefer the Mondial de la bière to be honest (World beer festival).

Tomalak · Mar 25, 2010

I do have one objection to make: The gods of L4W are left ambiguous on purpose, being creatures neither of good nor evil, law nor chaos. Imposing an 'adversary' would cast those gods to one end of the spectrum, even if it's not what was intended. Perhaps instead of a single adversarial figure, we could use a race or group. For reference, consider the Norse Giants and the Greek Titans.