Discussion: Devils and Demons in L4W Cosmology

Tomalak said:

I'm not sure what grouping you mean, however. I have begun lumping elementals in with immortals for 4e, rather than separating Demons out.

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Right; I'm not arguing that Demons aren't Immortals. I was just expressing my doubts about them being classified as a 'sub-deific force' representative of an alignment. To be honest I have trouble figuring out WHAT they're supposed to be. The write-ups make them sound like they should all be Unaligned and have Intelligence scores of 2, since their behaviour ('their only goal is to destroy as much as they can before they themselves are destroyed') sounds more like that of a rabid dog than a sentient being with an ego and faculties of reason and will.

Tomalak said:

All Devils in planescape (that I recall) served for their own purposes. Usually because they were forced to, or because they saw it as a path to power. After all, Baator and The Abyss were not ruled by Gods, but by Archdevils and Demon Princes.

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I never meant to imply that Baator and Tanar'ri were ruled by deities, or that they weren't self-serving. But still, when it comes to divine politics, they are liable to take a part. If a powerful entity out there is pursuing an agenda of brutal domination and tyranny, the Baatezu are going to be well-disposed to him. His actions are essentially pleasing to them, and there's every chance that they will forge an alliance with him. If they see a chance to spread their influence, there's every chance that they'd even offer him their support for free. If, in the future, they see a chance to subjugate him and take more power for themselves, or if he crosses them, then, sure, the alliance may not hold; those are implicit dangers in any ventures in Infernal politics, but that doesn't change the fact that the Baatezu (and the Tanar'ri) are fundamentally capable of making common cause with an ally.

I'm not trying to say that the Baatezu and Tanar'ri aren't selfish, or that they don't crave power, but ultimately they are devoted to things bigger than themselves. Everything a Baatezu does (even in the methods by which it schemes for personal advancement; twisting laws, abusing its subordinates and plotting against its superiors) is ultimately dedicated to the Baatorian ideal. Everything a Tanar'ri does (even as it, too, schemes for personal advancement; with pre-emptive acts of paranoid brutality against potential threats and direct, violent assertions of its own power and will) is ultimately dedicated to the Abyssal ideal.


By contrast, the Yugoloths simply do not have the capability to make common cause, because they have no cause. Each and every Yugoloth has one priority, and one priority only: personal power. Yugoloths are dedicated to nothing. At their core is the utter nihilism of the Gray Waste. That's why, although anybody can play at being a self-serving mercenary, and the Baatezu and Tanar'ri do it better than many, it's the Yugoloths who made it into a true art form.

This was the distinction that I was trying to make about 4E devils. They lack the essential nihilism of the Yugoloths, but what they have in common with them is a certain lack of grand purpose. They're just a force of sheer malignance - pure will to power. Thus, I can easily see them rivalling the good old Yugoloths when it came to mercenary endeavours.

Well if the Crimelord crew manages to stop Mr.X/Kadaj then perhaps Zal'Ekthees will need to hire one or the other group (or maybe both?) to get some revenge on the PCs...

I remind you that the above is in keeping with the 4e cosmology - which we don't use. We have cast out their gods, let us cast out also anything else we don't like, and use what remains as we wish. After All, 'devil' just used to mean 'Baatorian Immortal', right?

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Yes and no. The idea that angels, for the most part serve the gods, is keeping with current 4e cosmology is correct.

The idea that the devils are separate is not. Asmodeus is a god now. Devils serve Asmodeous. What was proposed is that they're separated from any direct loyalties to any gods.

THe fact the fact their alignment is any, is part of the stat block. While it doesn't often affect powers or abilities, it is a mechanic.

The idea that the gods should be relatively unalligned is not even close to keeping with 4e cosmology.

I think we're all looking at the same general ideas and saying much the same things, differently, am I right? We want 'demon' 'devil' 'elemental' and 'angel' to be biological (or metaphysical) designations, not nationalities. Regardless of how these creatures behave, this is the gist of what I'm hearing, right?

Primarily, I'm interested in knowing if any part of the 4e cosmology, or the Planescape cosmology, remain, because I want to play with planar fallout in my upcoming adventure, but I don't want to hare off on my own without getting a general idea of how our group cosmology should go.

I think much of the gods stuff/planar landscape is a bit vague. If you'd like to incorporate something, propose it. That way we can talk specifics, because right now we're talking a bit in the abstracts. I would love to incorporate the Blood War as well, because it's a fairly cool thing.

renau1g said:

I think much of the gods stuff/planar landscape is a bit vague. If you'd like to incorporate something, propose it. That way we can talk specifics, because right now we're talking a bit in the abstracts. I would love to incorporate the Blood War as well, because it's a fairly cool thing.

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Have to agree to disagree there, r1. The Blood War is a vestige of the partitioning of planes based upon alignment and as such is not necessarily apropos for a setting whose outer planes are not alignment based. Not that that issue has been decided either.

Planescape did the Blood War okay, but it still felt ultimately artificial to me.

stonegod said:

Have to agree to disagree there, r1. The Blood War is a vestige of the partitioning of planes based upon alignment and as such is not necessarily apropos for a setting whose outer planes are not alignment based. Not that that issue has been decided either.

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Surely, though, regardless of the split on the law/chaos axis, the Blood War can still be included as a personal grudge match between Asmodeus (and/or other archdevils) and one or more demon princes. If people generally like the idea of conflict between demons and devils, and want to include that in their games, I don't see anything standing in the way of that.

Antithetist said:

Surely, though, regardless of the split on the law/chaos axis, the Blood War can still be included as a personal grudge match between Asmodeus (and/or other archdevils) and one or more demon princes. If people generally like the idea of conflict between demons and devils, and want to include that in their games, I don't see anything standing in the way of that.

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Alignment-based grudges are my issue, not others. Of course, one still needs to be found for the (lack of) cosmology L4W has.

Well I certainly don't have a problem with them. Why would devils like demons? Demons destroy what they want. Theres no getting along there.

Wether it's a blood war or not, I can't imagine it going differently.

I don't buy Zal'Ekthees as Orcus. That may have been Ukingsken's original intention, but so far, all we've actually seen of Z in-game is that he is a demon, has some devotees with a thing for necromancy, and his servants claim he is/was/will be a god. Which I think is true of pretty much any demon with a cult.

If Z were really a big shot like his followers claim, he'd have more of an organization. The low-level servants that the PCs are running across now would have superiors, and orders to follow. I don't see an epic-level demon with a real shot at godhood making time for the likes of Slardazial. He'd have intermediaries for that.

I think Z is either an intermediary for a bigger fish in a bigger pond, or a small-time independent trying to build a power base by lying about how important he is.