Discussion: Devils and Demons in L4W Cosmology

TwoHeadsBarking · Mar 29, 2010

It may just be that he's not a big presence in Daunton. He's certainly cause for concern in the Kingdom of Jade.

Anyway, here's how ukingsken described him:

"A demigod worshiped by intelligent undead and necromancers mostly, actually an aspect of Kronos seeking freedom"

covaithe · Mar 29, 2010

Oh, if he's been active in KoJ, I take it back. I don't follow all of the adventures there. Just me not knowing what I'm talking about.

But this kind of does underscore what I see as the main point of this thread, which is that it would be nice if we were all on the same page as to roughly who the important beings in the universe were, and where they hang out.

duhexenhase · Mar 29, 2010

I am going to handle extra planar entities (EPE), at least until there is some sort of consensus otherwise, by keeping whatever big plans they have purposely vague and deeply veiled. I feel this is the best way to allow different DMs to keep their ideas of how the EPE work. In one adventure, an imp says devils and demons are fighting a massive, endless, blood war; in another an oni prince says such a thing ended thousands of years ago; yet another has a servant of a Dionysusian God, arogue angel of drunken revelry, using an aura of madness to start bar-fights though out the land.

I wouldn't think the nature of the grand forces behind everything is something that needs to be fully mapped out at the lower levels, if it even can be actually mapped out. It's hard to know what a mayor is plans, or why he does what he does, let alone some immortal being which uses dragons and liches as pawns in a cosmic game.

I hope this makes sense.

Tomalak · Mar 29, 2010

duhexenhase said:
I am going to handle extra planar entities (EPE), at least until there is some sort of consensus otherwise, by keeping whatever big plans they have purposely vague and deeply veiled. I feel this is the best way to allow different DMs to keep their ideas of how the EPE work. In one adventure, an imp says devils and demons are fighting a massive, endless, blood war; in another an oni prince says such a thing ended thousands of years ago; yet another has a servant of a Dionysusian God, arogue angel of drunken revelry, using an aura of madness to start bar-fights though out the land.

I wouldn't think the nature of the grand forces behind everything is something that needs to be fully mapped out at the lower levels, if it even can be actually mapped out. It's hard to know what a mayor is plans, or why he does what he does, let alone some immortal being which uses dragons and liches as pawns in a cosmic game.

I hope this makes sense.

It does make sense, but it also makes a mess, IMO. The core advantage of having a living world (again, IMO) is that all the adventures take place in a single, cohesive setting. If the 'other planes' are different depending on who your DM is, that takes away from the 'shared experience' quality of a Living World.

Mal Malenkirk · Mar 29, 2010

I was only half joking with the secret DM covention, earlier.

We have a common pantheon, which is fine. I have noticed reference to the gods all around the board and they are consistent from adventure to adventure because our gods are pretty much ripped off from the greek/roman pantheon and that's part of most posters cultural heritage in some way.

We need the same thing for the major forces of Evil (note the capital E).

They need to have enough variety to cover all the bases but still be in a manageable numbers. They need to be archetypical enough that DMs will easily be able to use them in a consistent manner accross the various adventure. And we need some kind of log where DMs contribute a three line summary of the setback and victories that the PCs have inflicted them.

I strongly believe that this will be important to maintain a sense of community; there's nothing like common enemies to unite people.

I suggest at least (but not much more than) the following.

We need one Devil Lord and one Demon Lord. I strongly suggest dispensing with the numerous demon prince and lord of hell, let's focus on a stong archetype of what devils and demons represents.

We need one fallen power, cast out in immemorial time and of universe ending power, trying to take vengeance on creation if he can break away from his prison.

We need a force of the underdark, marshalling the beholders, drows, duergars and so on.

We need one invincible conqueror threatening all free people (I'd suggest an ancient dragon).

We may also need a threat from the sea and the planes.

I'd stop at these, flesh them out, pimp them out and ask in adventure proposal that whenever Evil with a capital E is involved, that it ties in to these forces we have fleshed.

Creative DM shouldn't be stifled by this. A demonic forces that doesn't behave in the traditionl mole could be associated to a lieutenant, for example. But we need a bit more uniformity, that's for sure.

stonegod · Mar 29, 2010

We also need some Things Not To Be Known, esp. since they have already reared their ugly head in death of the Five.

ScorpiusRisk · Mar 30, 2010

We have a common pantheon, which is fine. I have noticed reference to the gods all around the board and they are consistent from adventure to adventure because our gods are pretty much ripped off from the greek/roman pantheon and that's part of most posters cultural heritage in some way.

We need the same thing for the major forces of Evil (note the capital E).

They need to have enough variety to cover all the bases but still be in a manageable numbers. They need to be archetypical enough that DMs will easily be able to use them in a consistent manner accross the various adventure. And we need some kind of log where DMs contribute a three line summary of the setback and victories that the PCs have inflicted them.

I strongly believe that this will be important to maintain a sense of community; there's nothing like common enemies to unite people.

I agree. I'm not sure we need such a large number right this moment, but I like you're archetypes. If people are thinking about using an archetype, it would be advantageous to us all if they brought their ideas here.

We need one Devil Lord and one Demon Lord. I strongly suggest dispensing with the numerous demon prince and lord of hell, let's focus on a stong archetype of what devils and demons represents.

I agree and disagree. I agree that we should focus on one for now. In the future it may make sense to add more later. However, if you're actually suggesting that their should be only one powerful demon lord and the rest work under him/her then I strongly disagree. I think we need to keep their archetypal destructive nature and chaotic attitude.

So as for the devil lord, I like the ideas people have been pitching about the adversary, for this.

In contrast I know there are many cunning demon lords out there and they make great epic villains, but I'd prefer someone more destructive. A Doomsday to the devils Lex Luthor. Something demons follow because they either have no choice or know its the path to even more devastation.

I definantly have some ideas cooking for a Lieutenant to the devil power.

We need one fallen power, cast out in immemorial time and of universe ending power, trying to take vengeance on creation if he can break away from his prison.

This could tie in nicely with either a fallen god, a primordial or an abberation. Maybe this has something to do with the death angels in Valhyr.

We need a force of the underdark, marshalling the beholders, drows, duergars and so on.

See this is where I actually see a dragon coming in for some reason. An old shadow dragon . . . Though I definantly could work with the dragon in the below roll as well.

We need one invincible conqueror threatening all free people (I'd suggest an ancient dragon).

Immediately I think of a primordial with an army of giants. Maybe something to help tie in the psionic classes though?

We may also need a threat from the sea and the planes.

The invincible conqueror could easily be one of these.

Creative DM shouldn't be stifled by this. A demonic forces that doesn't behave in the traditionl mole could be associated to a lieutenant, for example. But we need a bit more uniformity, that's for sure.

Again, I have a difficult time with demons always being so orderly.

Fragsie · Mar 30, 2010

The Power of Knowledge kind of hints at one of those archetypes, I don't want to say which one, or how though because not much has been revealed in the adventure yet. I also have vague plans for the sequel in which the concept will be expanded upon. I'll do a little write up of the ideas I've got and post them in a spoiler tomorrow, see what you think.

covaithe · Mar 30, 2010

If the Adversary isn't to be Top Dog, I see him more as a separate archetype, rather than as the lord of the devils. More of an eternal outsider, subverting rather than conquering. I expect he would be solitary, relying on temporary deals or alliances with other powers, rather than having a horde of minions. His goals would be opaque, subtle, and long-term, rather than anything as obvious as conquest or power.

Is there any reason we couldn't just pinch Asmodeus for the devil lord? The name certainly isn't copyrighted; it's centuries old. We dress him up as a generic King of Hell type, bent on absolute power within his domain, and patient enough to let his domain grow at its own pace, as opportunity presents.

I'm not sure I see a single ruler over the demons. I prefer the natural selection model, a la Blackdirge, where demons are constantly clawing their way to power, only to be dragged down themselves as soon as they reach the top. Only very rarely does a demon arise who can hold on to power over a long period of time and become a (semi) permanent fixture in the list of powers. Zal'Ekthees would be one of these, along with a small handful of others.

Where does Hecate fit in all of this?

ScorpiusRisk · Mar 30, 2010

Who's Hecate again?

I don't have a problem using Asmodeus instead of the Adversary. I must have misread him. He seemed very devlish to me. However, as I think I may have already posted, the arch devils are not IP of WotC. As long as we don't adhere tightly to the fluff things should be fine. I'm all for this.

It seems we agree on the way demons should work. Though I don't think it should be an issue to encourage focus on one. Perhaps Zal'Ekthees could certainly fill that roll.