Combining Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority

Naszir · Mar 29, 2010

I don't like the “marking” mechanic that much. The fighter in melee mode should basically have 1 square zone around him (melee 1) all the time, he has his head on swivel so to speak. If an enemy is in that zone then he better concentrate on the fighter or the fighter is going to punish him for dropping his guard.

So I give you:

Combat Prowess Fighter Feature
At-Will (Special) * Martial, Weapon
Special: You may use this power once per enemy combatant turn.
Opportunity Action Melee 1
Trigger: Any enemy that is adjacent to you moves (including shifts) or makes a melee attack that does not include you.
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs AC
Gain a power bonus to this attack equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Hit: 1[W] + Strength damage and any enemy struck by your attack stops moving, if a move provoked the attack.

Is this too powerful? What are the implications of this feature when considering Reach Weapons? Suggestions for revision?

Nifft · Mar 29, 2010

Naszir said:
Combat Prowess Fighter Feature
At-Will * Martial Weapon
Immediate Interrupt Melee 1
Trigger: Enemy that is adjacent to you shifts or makes a melee attack that does not include you.
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs AC
Gain a power bonus to this attack equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Hit: 1[W] + Strength damage and any enemy struck by your attack stops moving, if a move provoked the attack.

Is this too powerful? What are the implications of this feature when considering Reach Weapons? Suggestions for revision?

It's a nerf on the Fighter, who previously could stop ANY NUMBER of foes who provoked OAs from him.

It doesn't work with Heavy Blade Opportunity (a Paragon feat), so that's a double nerf on those Fighters who like that feat.

Cheers, -- N

Keenberg · Mar 29, 2010

I personally believe this is overpowered. I believe that having to mark each enemy on a separate turn keeps things balanced nicely, and is a bit more realistic (although I don't know how you favor realism as opposed to the fantastic. That is a different discussion.) Just because a fighter runs in to the fray of 3 or 4 enemies doens't mean he will automatically be able to control them all. With your rule, a fighter can do just that. He dashes into a group of enemies and immediately, they're all more or less locked on him due to the consequences. You can say you don't like marking, but shifting was created as the safe way of leaving combat, after all. The enemies should have a small amount of time to jump out of his way, in this case, 1 to 3 rounds.

According to your wording, and the PHB, the "Combat Prowess" feature wouldn't be affected by reach weapons. Your wording only concerns adjacent foes, as does opportunity attacks with reach weapons ("PHB pg217: You can still make opportunity attacks only against adjacent enemies.")

I don't really have any suggestions for revisions. I think the warrior features as written were balanced and reflect reality fairly well.

Naszir · Mar 29, 2010

Interesting, two opposite points of view.

Nifft, why can't the fighter stop any number of foes that provoked OA's from him with Combat Prowess? The intent of mine was to still to make this happen. Maybe the target line should read;

Maybe there should be no target line in the power and it should just be read with a Trigger line?

Keenberg - What's the difference in reality between this power and the situation where the fighter is surrounded and has marked all those around him?

Nifft · Mar 30, 2010

Naszir said:
Nifft, why can't the fighter stop any number of foes that provoked OA's from him with Combat Prowess?

Because Immediate Interrupt. You can use this power once per round, period.

Cheers, -- N

Keenberg · Mar 30, 2010

Naszir said:
Keenberg - What's the difference in reality between this power and the situation where the fighter is surrounded and has marked all those around him?

Talking in game terms, "surrounded" means 9 adjacent enemies. This would simply be a bad move with your character (who wants to take 9 hits a turn?) Likely, it wouldn't happen: the fighter would shift to keep only a reasonable amount of enemies locked on him, or die getting his butt whipped by nine guys. Forgoing that, it would have taken 9 rounds to mark everybody using the RAW, which gives it some sort of basis in reality. The fighter would need time to establish what is going on around him so that he could gain the advantage over his foes. The difference in reality is that it would take some amount of time to think about how the enemies fight to gain any sort of advantage over them.

With "Combat Prowess," a fighter could drop out of the sky in to the middle of nine guys and know exactly what is going on at all times in every direction. That doesn't stand to reason if you ask me. A (very) skilled fighter (i.e. Bruce Lee) could do something like that, though. If you want to allow a fighter to do something like this, I think it is better suited for higher levels.

Also: I do agree with Nifft. Eliminating the OA mechanic is a major nerf...

Nifft · Mar 30, 2010

Keenberg said:
Talking in game terms, "surrounded" means 9 adjacent enemies. This would simply be a bad move with your character (who wants to take 9 hits a turn?) Likely, it wouldn't happen: the fighter would shift to keep only a reasonable amount of enemies locked on him, or die getting his butt whipped by nine guys. Forgoing that, it would have taken 9 rounds to mark everybody using the RAW, which gives it some sort of basis in reality.

Psst, Come and Get It. There's a low-level power which pulls (up to) 9 dudes adjacent to you, and attacks (and therefore Marks) all of them.

Cheers, -- N

Keenberg · Mar 30, 2010

Nifft said:
Psst, Come and Get It. There's a low-level power which pulls (up to) 9 dudes adjacent to you, and attacks (and therefore Marks) all of them.

Cheers, -- N

I missed that one. Personally, I've never played a defender. I didn't know that they could handle 9 guys on them. That aside, the power we're talking about here calls nine guys in, and the fighter takes the first swing at them. The basis for reality here is that the fighter has initiated the combat and made the first move. It stands to reason here that he'd have the advantage on them for that reason: they are caught off guard and playing catch-up with him.

Naszir · Mar 30, 2010

Nifft said:
Because Immediate Interrupt. You can use this power once per round, period.

Cheers, -- N

But Combat Challege is an immediate interrupt. It is not described as an OA.

eriktheguy · Mar 30, 2010

Naszir said:
But Combat Challege is an immediate interrupt. It is not described as an OA.

He means that this would remove the fighters ability to add wisdom modifier to normal OAs and stop movement with normal OAs. I don't know if this is the intention of your power.
To be clear; are you replacing the fighter combat challenge with this power, or are you replacing combat challenge AND combat superiority?