New adventure path from ENP

Morrus · Apr 6, 2010

Later this year, we'll be seriously turning our minds to an AP to produce once we've finished with WotBS. At the moment there is nothing specific planned - not even a concept of idea. Just that we plan to do another AP later.

So if you have any ideas, requests, concepts, desires, hopes, or opinions - feel free to post 'em here. We'll read this thread and it *might* help guide our conceptualization of the new AP.

We're interested in hearing your opinions on themes (planar? pirates? underdark? oriental? war? awakening ancient evil? political? etc.); and on the structure (encompassing all levels again? shorter?)

We don't know yet *when* this'll happen, but I'm currently trying to persuade Ryan Nock to take the helm again. He hasn't said yes yet, so no promises there!

renau1g · Apr 6, 2010

Is it going to be a full 30 level AP? I might like to see a smaller arc that maybe could be like 4-5 adventures, otherwise my group will likely never be able to complete it

. Personally, I'd like to see it from say mid-heroic to mid-paragon

Are you going to be opening up things for submissions or sticking with your current freelancers?

Thanks! I look forward to it.

Blackbrrd · Apr 6, 2010

I haven't gotten that far, but a AP going from level 1-15 is something I would really like. Epic 4e isn't something I am exactly dead set on playing.

WotBS is different from other AP's I have tried because of the depth of the characters presented, their motivations and the non white-and-black theme. Some more of this would make it a sure sell with me.

Paizo is doing a "Sandbox" AP at the moment, something I would really like, but I don't think I would switch to pathfinder or back to 3.5 to play it. Hint-hint. I haven't got the time to create a sandbox of my own but would like to DM and would love to play. Maybe I can get somebody to run it?

EugeneZ · Apr 7, 2010

Personally, I think an adventure path would be highly incomplete if it didn't go all the way to 30. Trimming an AP is *super* easy, and in fact, lets you cut the encounters, adventures, and events you didn't like as much as the ones you're keeping.

I was going to make a few suggestions and requests but to be totally honest, if Ryan is helming it, I'm not picky.

So that's my number one request -- and not just Ryan, the more people you can get on board from WotBS 3.5e and 4e the better, in my opinion. I'm not just saying that because I like WotBS. There's a *a lot* to be said for experienced developers and a team learning to work together. They did it once, they can do it again, and better.

But if it's a whole new team lined up, then I suppose suggestions are the way to go. On that note, may I suggest something more experimental and... off the cuff? I think that's sort of missing in the 4e stuff I see coming out: something unique and interesting, with less emphasis on railroading the players.

For example, take the concept writers like Jack Vance and Gene Wolfe have mastered and create a setting that takes place in the far future, where social and biological decay have corrupted civilization so far that the setting essentially becomes a twisted medieval/fantasy vision rather than anything sci-fi. Let's say most of mankind leaves Earth in the future (let's call it eight hundred years from now) because something has gone wrong with the sun. But many people, for one reason or another, couldn't make it off. The windstorms and flooding annihilated anyone who stayed above ground, so a "Points of Light"-like environment exists underground: many colonies and even large cities built in the last couple hundred years using technologies that work like magic: construction robots that build skyscrapers underground, but whom no one has the knowledge to repair. To add more of a fantasy element, throw in some experiments with dark matter and genetics gone wrong. Arcane and Psionic power source, right there.

That's just an example; but if you're interested, I am currently developing just such a campaign for use down the line.

Amphimir Míriel · Apr 7, 2010

Count me in

I am also interested in a second 4E adventure path from ENP.

We are currently running WotBS and we love it!

Truename · Apr 7, 2010

Great news! I think WotBS is fabulous. I've played through #1, read #2, and skimmed #3, so these comments are based on that background:

Things to keep:
* The non-linear structure and copious DM notes about how to deal with various player actions. Add even more information about what something means and how items/characters recur so DMs can plan and foreshadow.
* The great characterization and prolific use of NPCs.
* Intentionally unbalanced encounters.
* Lots of non-combat scenes.
* Plenty of story. I want plotty goodness even in a sandbox structure.

Things to improve:
* Improve grasp of 4e mechanics and reduce unintentional unbalance. (Remember, though, I've only played through WotBS #1 so far.)
* Improve adventure layout and structure. Make it easier for the DM to grasp the whole. Optimize for two things: grokking the adventure on its first read-through, and using it as a reference at the table. Perhaps include summaries that can be quickly referenced by glancing down while DMing, alongside more traditional prose meant for reading ahead of time. Perhaps even repeat the content in two parts--adventure information & reference + delve-style spreads.
* Skill challenges. Don't include 'em unless failure has an impact on the story. (Personally, I think skill challenges are a broken mechanic, so I'd say ditch 'em entirely. But that's me.)

Things to steal from WoTC:
* Great set-piece battles.
* Ease of running a scene/encounter "from the module" when prep-time is tight.
* Clear "mini-arcs" that span a single tier, knitted together into an overall story.
* Noticeable change in scope and flavor between heroic, paragon, and epic tiers.
* Roleplaying stat blocks.

Morrus · Apr 7, 2010

I'm certainly on board with doing things a bit differently. I'm also half on board with dumping or redesigning skill challenges.

One thing I've always loved the idea of - but don't think it's feasible - is a set of adventures which can be played in any order. Gives the players real control, and while - as an AP - it's still railroady to an extent, it helps create an illusion that it's not. The problemw with that idea, of course, is that PCs level up, which means that every single adventure has to accomodate every possible level. I don't think that would work.

renau1g · Apr 7, 2010

Well...with the monster builder it would take a DM some time, but perhaps it might work out well? Now for those without DDI it could be more work, but really bumping up, or delevelling monsters isn't the hardest thing in the world. +1 or -1 here or there and + or - a set amount of hp. Only thing problematic is the monsters auras/special abilities that a DM needs to pay attention to.

I don't think it could work from say 1-30 but even within a half-tier or possibly even a full tier it could maybe work. Off the cuff thoughts is that there could be three areas, one for each corresponding tier of adventuring (if you go full 1-30 levels). This creates "Noticeable change in scope and flavor between heroic, paragon, and epic tiers." (Truename's comment) that is fun for the players.

John Doom · Apr 7, 2010

renau1g said:
Well...with the monster builder it would take a DM some time, but perhaps it might work out well? Now for those without DDI it could be more work, but really bumping up, or delevelling monsters isn't the hardest thing in the world. +1 or -1 here or there and + or - a set amount of hp. Only thing problematic is the monsters auras/special abilities that a DM needs to pay attention to.

I don't think it could work from say 1-30 but even within a half-tier or possibly even a full tier it could maybe work. Off the cuff thoughts is that there could be three areas, one for each corresponding tier of adventuring (if you go full 1-30 levels). This creates "Noticeable change in scope and flavor between heroic, paragon, and epic tiers." (Truename's comment) that is fun for the players.

I really love WotBS so far, and my group seems to really enjoy it too. One of the biggest draws for me is, as a DM, my prep time is relatively minimal. I basically have to know the story, do the treasure stuff, and prepare the maps. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to do more than that, but the current layout is part of what makes WotBS so great!

In reply to Renau1g; I think that idea would work for half tiers. Any higher than that and it would be a bit like an open jRPG where your players go into the tougher areas but they would get the TPK that can ruin a game.

Also, wouldn't it mean that ENP would have to release then entire AP in one go?

renau1g · Apr 7, 2010

I have the current Paizo AP (Kingmaker) and it is a sandbox open concept game and it has some hints for who to keep the PC's from getting in over their heads. Say the level 1 PC's end up heading to the next area (meant for lvl 5+) the module suggests letting the PC's see the powerful enemies from afar first if they don't remember the monsters from the area with skill checks. If the party says "no, we're level 1's, we can totally take that group of trolls" then they're deserving of a TPK.

Personally, I like the half-tier idea myself. In Kingmaker the first adventure is from 1-4, so you can easily make the 4e one 1-5. This would also cut down on the number of adventures to write. I'm guessing there's got to be some economies of scale dealing with fewer, but larger adventures when you get it formatted, printed, etc as the small scale print run would cost a fortune for EN.

If it's half tiers, there's less chance for a party to get in over their heads (in the aforementioned example, 4e PC's at level 1 are much hardier than PF ones) and after one or two very difficult battles they might reconsider the area and try somewhere else. As Morrus said, the illusion that there's no railroads