A Bestiary question I'm embarrassed to ask...

SoldierBlue · Apr 29, 2010

Stupid question - in the 3.5 MM it was easy to tell between attack and full attack. With the Bestiary I'm mystified. When is it a full attack, when it is merely an attack (as a standard action), and when is it simply a several available attack options.

Example: the Vrock reads this in its stat block (Bestiary p. 69):

Melee 2 claws +13(2d6+5), bite +13 (1d8+5), 2 talons +13 (1d6+5)

Are these options for its standard attack, or is this its full attack?

In MM 3.5 (p 48),this would have been its full attack.

Can anyone shed light on this question (and again, I'm a little embarrased to be asking....

Thanks

ruemere · Apr 29, 2010

The short version:
What you do is:
- either pick a single attack and use it (for standard actions)
- use all of them at the same time (for full attacks)
- use a weapon as normal and add all attacks as secondaries (i.e. all natural attacks become secondary, so for those who were originally primary apply -5 attack penalty and decrease damage bonus by 1/2 STRENGTH bonus).

The long version:
Links:
Pathfinder PRD, Combat.
Pathfinder PRD, Universal Monster Rules.

Any single attack requires standard action.
Use of full attack action requires full-round action.
All relevant bonuses (including whether the attack is primary or secondary) should be already calculated in statblock.
Use of natural attacks goes as follows (Universal Monster Rules version):

Natural Attacks: Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on attack rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.

Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

Below there is a table containing attack types:

Regards,
Ruemere

SoldierBlue · Apr 29, 2010

Primary/Secondary attacks...

Ruemere,

Thanks for your helpful reply.

So the lowly troll, for example has the fol for attacks:

bite +8 (1d8+5), 2 claws +8 (1d6+5)

These are both considered primary attacks, so even with a full attack, are both done with the +8 to hit, or is the bite done @ +8, and the claws done at +3 (-5 from +8)?

Thanks

billd91 · Apr 29, 2010

SoldierBlue said:
Ruemere,

Thanks for your helpful reply.

So the lowly troll, for example has the fol for attacks:

bite +8 (1d8+5), 2 claws +8 (1d6+5)

These are both considered primary attacks, so even with a full attack, are both done with the +8 to hit, or is the bite done @ +8, and the claws done at +3 (-5 from +8)?

Thanks

They're both (or, technically, all 3 are) primary attack forms. The difference between primary and secondary now is in the nature of the weapon rather than based on which attacks first in a full attack routine. A secondary weapon is now more like a fall-back weapon or Plan B weapon. The creature can use it in an attack, even use it exclusively if it wanted, but because it's not geared for its primary offense, it's not as effective as a primary weapon.

ruemere · Apr 29, 2010

SoldierBlue said:
Ruemere,

Thanks for your helpful reply.

So the lowly troll, for example has the fol for attacks:

bite +8 (1d8+5), 2 claws +8 (1d6+5)

These are both considered primary attacks, so even with a full attack, are both done with the +8 to hit, or is the bite done @ +8, and the claws done at +3 (-5 from +8)?

Thanks

Needlessly brutal example

A lowly troll decides to have a princess for a snack. On its turn, assuming the princess is within troll's reach, it may:
- use a standard action to take a healthy bite of the princess and forego move action at +8 attack
- use a standard action to test strength of its left claw strike on her and forego move action at +8 attack
- use a standard action to test strength of its right claw strike on her and forego move action at +8 attack
- use a full attack action in attempt to turn her into bloody pulp at +8 claw/+8 bite/+8 claw series of attacks

Regards,
Ruemere

James Jacobs · Apr 29, 2010

Yeah; by linking whether a natural attack is primary or secondary to the TYPE of attack (be it a bite or a hoof or whatever), we can get away from the awkward issue of timing determining which attack is primary and which is secondary. This means that no matter what order a monster makes its attacks in, the attack roll modifiers don't change. Which makes it unnecessary to have a separate "standard attack" line in a stat block.

frankthedm · Apr 29, 2010

SoldierBlue said:
Can anyone shed light on this question (and again, I'm a little embarrassed to be asking....

An attack action just gets one attack, chose any one.

Full attack, make all natural attacks*, choose whatever order you want to make them in#.

#If using a manufactured weapon as well, your BAB based weapon attacks still must be taken in order, but the natural weapons can be sprinkled around any way you see fit.

*If you connect with a

n improved

Grab, you still get to keep making your natural attacks after making the grab, 3.5 seemed murky on that issue. Also natural attacks are NOT penalized in pathfinder grappling. Sadly it takes a standard action to maintain the grapple on later rounds, but at least the full attack that snags the victim is not interrupted.

ruemere said:

Needlessly brutal example

A lowly troll decides to have a princess for a snack. On its turn, assuming the princess is within troll's reach, it may:
- use a standard action to take a healthy bite of the princess and forego move action at +8 attack
- use a standard action to test strength of its left claw strike on her and forego move action at +8 attack
- use a standard action to test strength of its right claw strike on her and forego move action at +8 attack
- use a full attack action in attempt to turn her into bloody pulp at +8 claw/+8 bite/+8 claw series of attacks

Click to expand...

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.

It could also [bite +8] her face off and then decide if it wants move away with the mouthfull or if it wants to {Claw +8/ Claw +8] off two more handfuls of meat.

SoldierBlue · Apr 29, 2010

So if the troll had to move to attack our poor princess, it would have lost the opportunity for a full attack. However, I thought that a standard action would be to attack with both claws.

However - Ruemere indicates that our lowly troll could only move and attack with one claw...

Please confirm, and thanks again to all for valued assistance.

frankthedm · Apr 29, 2010

SoldierBlue said:
However - Ruemere indicates that our lowly troll could only move and attack with one claw...

Please confirm, and thanks again to all for valued assistance.

Correct, the Standard action: Attack Action would let the troll just take one claw attack. If it has to move more than the 5' step, it only gets to claw once.

Now if the troll did start it's turn adjacent to the little miss blue blood...

SoldierBlue · Apr 29, 2010

Gentlemen,

Thanks for all your help on this point. The "Pathfinder" system for monster melee is truly more elegant than previous ones...

And thanks so much for the highly illustrative graphics...

A Bestiary question I'm embarrassed to ask...

SoldierBlue

First Post

ruemere

Adventurer

SoldierBlue

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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)

ruemere

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James Jacobs

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frankthedm

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SoldierBlue

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frankthedm

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SoldierBlue

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