Discuss: Redesign wiki character sheets using variables

weldon

Explorer
Wikia.com support was really kind in enabling Extension:VariablesExtension on l4w.wikia.com for us. This means that we can simplify the character sheets by entering things like level, ability scores, ability mods, etc. in just one place and then reusing those values in other parts of the page (like in different parts of the math section, for example).

I thought I would start a discussion thread to get some people involved in redesigning the sheets.

I think this has the potential to make it much simpler to create and maintain sheets.

Some other topics for discussion...

  • we can use SemanticForms to create a form to fill out instead of editing the source directly.
  • we could create some apps to parse the .dnd4e xml file from the character builder and output the template to paste into the wiki. This will be simpler with variables too.
 

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Dekana

Explorer
I really don't want to have to use the spreadsheet to fill out my wiki page. I have no idea how the wikia variables work, but if we can define them within the wiki page itself using a form, I'd rather go with that.
 

Kalidrev

First Post
The only problem with using variables like this is that there are too many exceptions to too many rules to make this reliable. Take for instance the AC category. For those wearing Heavy armor, they just get what the armor grants. For those wearing Light armor, they get the better of their intelligence or dexterity modifiers on top of the bonus their armor gives. There are at least 2 classes that I can think of off the top of my head (Sorcerer and Warden) that allow them to use a different stat (Strength/Con/Wisdom, etc) for their AC. I wouldn't mind seeing these variables come into play, but it sounds like it will be a nightmare to implement and keep up to date.
 

weldon

Explorer
I really don't want to have to use the spreadsheet to fill out my wiki page. I have no idea how the wikia variables work, but if we can define them within the wiki page itself using a form, I'd rather go with that.
This solution would be fully contained in the wiki page itself. SemanticForms would make it a little easier to fill out. You could fill out entries in a form rather than edit the page source directly.

The first step is to design the template itself and then we can work on ways to make it simpler to fill out.

The only problem with using variables like this is that there are too many exceptions to too many rules to make this reliable. Take for instance the AC category. For those wearing Heavy armor, they just get what the armor grants. For those wearing Light armor, they get the better of their intelligence or dexterity modifiers on top of the bonus their armor gives. There are at least 2 classes that I can think of off the top of my head (Sorcerer and Warden) that allow them to use a different stat (Strength/Con/Wisdom, etc) for their AC. I wouldn't mind seeing these variables come into play, but it sounds like it will be a nightmare to implement and keep up to date.
You are thinking way beyond what I have in mind. Here's how variables would make the character sheet easier to maintain...

Right now, when you fill out the math section, you have to "show your work" to explain how you got at your numbers. Using variables, you could put "WIS" as your ability and then let the AC math template *look up* the modifier value from your stat block.

When you go up a level and change your Wisdom score to 16, you would normally go through all your math and update your ability mods everywhere to +3. All your powers, etc. With a variable, you would just change your ability score to 16 in your stat block and then the rest of the sections that depend on that ability modifier would be updated *automatically*. It would make the sheets a lot more reliable and more simple to maintain.

It doesn't make them fully automated.

Take a look at Finnian's math section for basic attacks...

There are 9 powers here. I have to specify the relevant ability for each one, and then enter the ability mod for each power as well. If my STR mod changes, I have to update 6 powers in just this section alone. If my level mod changes, I have to touch all 9. If I were using variables, I would specify my STR, DEX, and level mods in one place (let's call it the stat block) and these tables would update automatically as the modifier values changed.

The Defenses template isn't designed to use alternate abilities for AC (in your example above) but this is one of the things we could change so that it did.
 


covaithe

Explorer
I'm pretty sure we (meaning I) always intended for work on the character sheets to continue, especially if it involves simplifying the process of working with them.

I vaguely recall the mediawiki help pages mentioning something called variables. I didn't quite see what they were good for at the time, so I didn't use them. It sounds like you're describing something different from what I remember, though; something more useful. Cool.
 

weldon

Explorer
I'm pretty sure we (meaning I) always intended for work on the character sheets to continue, especially if it involves simplifying the process of working with them.
Awesome. I'm going to start by working on a statblock that may become a wiki infobox that will hold all the raw data like ability scores, level, etc. that is highly reusable in other templates.

I vaguely recall the mediawiki help pages mentioning something called variables. I didn't quite see what they were good for at the time, so I didn't use them. It sounds like you're describing something different from what I remember, though; something more useful. Cool.
MediaWiki variables are used for things like {{PAGENAME}} and {{SITENAME}} and so on. The VariablesExtension is quite different in that it allows variables like in the programming sense.

I'm actually pretty excited about it. :)
 

Kalidrev

First Post
I think just about everyone who fills out character sheets is excited about this, Weldon. If not, then they SHOULD be. This could very well be the solution to all of our character sheet problems and should eliminate just about all of the whi---less patient individuals who want to join us here ;)
 

ScorpiusRisk

First Post
For the record, I'm very interested to see how this turns out. The googlesheets were designed for those frustrated or confused by the current wiki template set up. I love wiki's but my css in minimal.

If this dramatically reduced some of that confusion and input time it would be excellent. Depending on the end product I would be tempted to move the math for my characters back on the wiki (they're currently set to go to the google sheets on level up).

I just wish you had proposed this a month ago. ;)
 

weldon

Explorer
This could very well be the solution to all of our character sheet problems...
I wouldn't go that far, but it will be a great next step to take in evolving the character sheets. There will still be a learning curve to the wiki, but I think we can cut it down and dramatically improve the maintenance of character sheets, particularly on level up.

...I love wiki's but my css in minimal.

If this dramatically reduced some of that confusion and input time it would be excellent...

I just wish you had proposed this a month ago. ;)
You know, I love wikis and spreadsheets both. The wiki is great though for the sense of community that it engenders and I see lots of opportunity to use the new semantic, DPL, and variables features to great effect.

I think confusion will still be an issue to work on, but input time should be reduced.

I would have proposed it a while ago, but I didn't save the wiki from extinction. The praise should go to renau1g. I was actually the one that put together the first google spreadsheet as a proof of concept with fragsie because I thought the wiki was toast. But now that it's up and running, I want to try and make it better.

I'm gonna work on the namespace stuff this weekend and then I'll start on some test templates using variables. I'll post details here as I go.
 

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