Grind

KarinsDad · May 7, 2010

Regardless of whether your definition of grind is that:

a) the battle is pointless
b) the battle drags on because the monsters have too many hit points
c) you have too much time to do text messaging between turns (one of my players used this as an argument to not have a 7th player join our group)
d) the encounter takes too long (like 1.5 or 2 or more hours)

or a combination of these and/or other definitions, it does seem like Grind used to be a more frequent discussion point around here over a year ago.

So, I was curious how much Grind is still out there, especially with the PCs having more options with the splat books, DMs understanding encounter design better, and with WotC trying to design better monsters.

Try to be honest here. If you do not experience Grind but some of your fellow players have mentioned it or seem to be frustrated waiting for their turn sometimes, don't answer #1.

wedgeski · May 7, 2010

With my DM's hat on, this is a tricky one to answer. In general, when I smell the whiff of approaching grind (say, one last Soldier or Brute who has been left alone for much of the fight, and PC's with nothing but At-Wills), I will hand-wave the fight in some contextually-appropriate manner.

Since I've been doing this since the earliest days of 3E, let alone 4E, it kinda comes naturally.

As a player, I've experienced grind with DM's who take no action even when it's very obvious it's coming, and then proceed to take no action when it's actually happening. In such circumstances, I'll look for ways to end the fight more quickly myself (offer terms, for example).

I would have to say 4E offers more opportunities for poor or less experienced DM's to fall into this trap, but would like to think no-one playing in one of my games has ever felt the grind to any extent.

Prestidigitalis · May 7, 2010

A combination of nothing but level+4 and higher encounters, one inattentive and unprepared player, and parties for which characters are created independently with no attempt at synergy => first vote for "often".

UltimaGabe · May 7, 2010

I'm probably not the greatest person to answer this question, as I have yet to be in a 4e game beyond 7th or 9th level (and I'm sure the issue of grind becomes more pronounced at Paragon or Epic tier), but I have yet to experience it. As a DM, I've noticed that there have been a few times when I thought it was going to happen, but the battles usually end perfectly in time to prevent grind. (Honestly, battles ending too quickly have become much more of a problem for me.)

keterys · May 7, 2010

I... think technically my vote would be for sometimes and so do my fellow players, because every 50-100 or so sessions I run into grind. But... that's really rare, right?

Piratecat · May 7, 2010

I voted for #1, but my answer is misleading. I can absolutely see how grind could be a problem, but I make sure to design encounters where it doesn't show up. As a result, we've never had in in 50+ sessions.

But could it, if the DM isn't paying attention? Hell yes.

KarinsDad · May 7, 2010

I don't like 4E Dragons.

They are just big brutes with little going for them.

So I sometimes put a spell casting class template on some of my Dragons, just to make them big brutes with spell casting capability, similar to earlier versions of D&D.

To me, that makes Dungeons and Dragons, Dungeons and Dragons, not Dungeons and Brutes.

Recently when the PCs were 15th level, I threw a level 13 Adult Mercury Dragon with no class template (an NPC foe that was supposed to just be a brute that the PCs had fought several levels earlier and who had fled) along with a level 17 Elder White Dragon with a Cleric class template (an NPC Clerical follower of Tiamat where Tiamat followers are starting to show up in the campaign).

Typically, I make the Class template for a given Dragon a Sorcerer, a Warlock, or a Wizard. This gives the Dragon some extra magic and throws curve balls at the players.

But since I gave the Cleric template this time, knowing ahead of time that it would extend the battle due to Dragon healing, I did not realize how much it would actually do this.

The battle just dragged on and on because the White Dragon did Stream of Life on the Mercury Dragon and then healed himself with Healing Word twice.

It also didn't help that the PCs focused most of their attacks on the stronger White Dragon instead of the weaker Mercury Dragon. I didn't expect this.

The encounter ended with both Dragons considering the fight a stalemate and just leaving. Both Dragons were about 1/3rd wounded after about 10 or 12 rounds of combat and most of the PCs were not bloodied either (due to the PC Cleric). Because Dragons only have a few recharge powers and the PCs went through many of their Encounter and Daily powers earlier, the encounter got pretty repetitive as well.

In the campaign scheme of things, the encounter was important for the PCs to acquire certain information. The encounter itself, though, became kind of pointless after a while.

So, it's not that hard to set up a grindy encounter, even if your intention is to just have an extended big battle.

Dr_Ruminahui · May 7, 2010

Seems that Karins Dad has an axe to grind... about grind.

Yes, I can see how that encounter would grind - one needs to be very careful with monster's with healing powers, as the game isn't really designed around them. This is particularly so with solos, who have such a huge surge value.

So, if you are taking the game somewhere that isn't within the core design parameters of the system (which you seem to do a fair bit - I believe your minion rules are also quite different from those presented in the core system), I can understand how that might magnify or create additional problems.

I guess that I'm in the camp that grind is something one needs to be a aware of, but isn't necessariy a problem. And I certainly don't think it is unique (or even greater) to 4e - I just think the 4e structure of tighter math has made us more aware of it. So has the power structure - I think we were all less aware of grind when the sole option of certain classes was "I hit it with my sword" - I would argue that by 4e standards a 3.5 fighter is inherently grindy.

And part of being aware of it is realising that having a pair of solos with several healing abilities is significantly going to add to the length of the combat - its like taking all your monsters and upping their HPs by 1/4 or more. Just like one has to be aware that a creature that is both insubstantial and causes the weakened condition may lead to long fights.

AbdulAlhazred · May 7, 2010

All I can say is if I were running an encounter with TWO solo monsters and one with multiple healing powers I am 100% certain it would be a very long and tedious encounter to play out to a final finish with the monsters (or party) wiped out.

Yes, 4e encounters can be grindy, even spectacularly so, IF you go far far out of the way of the design envelope. 4e probably has a narrower sweet spot than earlier editions too. Still, I have encountered very limited amounts of grind in a long time. At low heroic in my first campaign it did happen fairly often, but after several incidents where the combat was not all that exciting I worked out what things to particularly avoid and now it doesn't happen anymore, or at least hasn't happened in a good long while. I really haven't run much in the way of epic tier encounters though, so there may be different measures needed to avoid problems there.

I also remember a fair number of grindy encounters in older editions too. Higher levels didn't tend to get too grindy in 1e or 2e for one major reason though, if it threatened to happen the players just got bored and the magic user unleashed some encounter ending SOD.

KarinsDad · May 7, 2010

Dr_Ruminahui said:
So, if you are taking the game somewhere that isn't within the core design parameters of the system (which you seem to do a fair bit - I believe your minion rules are also quite different from those presented in the core system), I can understand how that might magnify or create additional problems.

Class templates are within the core design parameters. DMG 182.

Or is there a list of design parameters which are ok and others which are not?

Grind

What is your experience with Grind?

I have never experienced Grind and neither has my fellow players.

I have never experienced Grind but some of my fellow players used to when we first started playing.

I have never experienced Grind but some of my fellow players sometimes do.

I have never experienced Grind but some of my fellow players often do.

I used to experience Grind when we first started playing but my fellow players do not.

I used to experience Grind when we first started playing and so did some of my fellow players.

I used to exp Grind when we first started playing but some of my fellow players sometimes still do.

I used to exp Grind when we first started playing but some of my fellow players often still do.

I sometimes experience Grind but my fellow players do not.

I sometimes experience Grind and some of my fellow players used to when we first started playing.

I sometimes experience Grind and so do some of my fellow players.

I sometimes experience Grind but some of my fellow players often do.

I often experience Grind but my fellow players do not.

I often experience Grind but some of my fellow players used to when we first started playing.

I often experience Grind but some of my fellow players only sometimes do.

I often experience Grind and so do some of my fellow players.

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