NEW (AGAIN)- Thunderspire Labyrinth- Stat analysis #25 Shrine to Baphomet

Goonalan said:

for some reason I thought that a successful Heal check on a dying PC allows the dying PC to spend a Healing Surge rather than just stabilise... My bad. It was a natural '20' though on the roll for the Heal check, so that's okay then.

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Actually, you can use a Heal check to grant your dying ally the immediate use of their Second Wind as a no-action, if they haven't used it yet. Using Heal in this way is only DC 10, rather than the harder DC 15 to stabilize. Since McGyver hadn't used his Second Wind yet in this encounter, this was perfectly legal. Although it would use up his Second Wind.

firesnakearies said:

Actually, you can use a Heal check to grant your dying ally the immediate use of their Second Wind as a no-action, if they haven't used it yet. Using Heal in this way is only DC 10, rather than the harder DC 15 to stabilize. Since McGyver hadn't used his Second Wind yet in this encounter, this was perfectly legal. Although it would use up his Second Wind.

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I read that rule a couple of the times (PHB1 page 185) and settled on a different version in my head, that dying was the exception and the only thing to be done was to stabilise, then cure via magical/other means. Now I read it again the phrase 'without the character having to spend an action' leaps out and bites me in the butt.

I think sometimes I interpret rules based on what I know to be the case in previous editions, rather than just coming to 4e fresh and reading the words...

Thanks for pointing that out.

If you had told me that about two years ago then a lot of PCs would be alive today.

Hold on though, that makes it even more difficult for me to kill the PCs. That's not on.

H1 Keep on the Shadowfell
Encounter #2 A1 Kobold Ambush

Round #5.

Grey- Move. Ray of Frost KD2; Hit 8 Cold damage (16 HP bloodied) & Slowed. Surrenders.

Time to play 1 minute.
Total time to play 44 minutes.

End of Combat-

Good Guys
McGyver, Male Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut 1 (HP9/27 bloodied)
Dirty Biskit, Male Dwarven Fighter 1 (HP25/31)
Kaspard, Female Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut 1 (HP20/26)
Winstanley Portico, Male Halfling Rogue 1 (HP25/25)
Grey Morlock, Male Human Wizard 1 (HP18/23)

Bad Guys 625XP Level 2 Encounter.
Kobold Skirmisher Level 1 Skirmisher [KS] DEAD
Kobold Dragonshield Level 2 Soldier [KD] (x3) (HP16/36) 2 DEAD 1 SURRENDERED
Kobold Wyrmpriest Level 3 Artillery [KW] DEAD

Action Points 0 Total 0
Daily Powers 0 Total 0
Healing Surges 0 Total 4
2nd Winds 0 Total 1
Crits 0 Total 2
Ko'd PCs 0 Total 1
Bad Guy Crits 0 Total 1

Comment: I think the players were a little dismayed that firstly the monsters got the jump on them, the value of the Perception check has just rocketed; and secondly that the monsters were harder to kill, they miss Minions already- the learning curve starts here. Good encounter for the reasons stated above, however I'm still just not sure I like the idea of two ambushes in a row, and yet with the PCs heading to the Kobold Lair it has to work this way (IMHO).

The surrendered Kobold Dragonshield eventually tells all he knows- which is that there are some guards outside the lair, and that Irontooth lies within- Irontooth the Goblin; Irontooth the Killer. The PCs can't wait to meet him.

Stats: A slightly fairer distribution of attacks, PCs 28 attack rolls vs Monsters 21; with the PCs connecting 75% of the time (that's some effort with the dice), and the monsters connecting only 61.9% of the time. Honourable mention goes to McGyver who hit 83.33% of the time (5 from 6), and soaked up a total of 59 Hit Points damage in the fracas. McGyver was in the firing line for 13 of the monsters 21 attacks- that's solid Defending, although he did lie down briefly. Only Grey did more damage than McGyver (McGyver 48 damage; Grey 59), and that's with Dirty landing 2 Crits (44 damage in total).

Stats Comparison: In the first combat the bad guys had 101 hit points all told, in this fight it was 171; no Daily Powers or Action points got spent, unlike in the first fight- therefore damage/turn suffered, Encounter #1 53.33 points/turn; Encounter #2 35.67 points/turn. This of course slowed the encounter down considerably, from 3 Turns for Encounter #1 to 6 Turns for Encounter #2. Having said this the time for completing the encounter was impressive- Encounter #1 26 minutes, Encounter #2 44 minutes- it seems pretty much in proportion with the increased hit points for the bad guys.

Odd stat this but here goes, in Encounter #1 the PCs clocked up 18.27 XP/minute of play, and 158.33 XP/Turn; each turn averaging 8.67 minutes. In comparison in Encounter #2 the PCs managed 14.2 XP/minute of play, and 104.17 XP/Turn; each turn averaging 7.33 minutes to play.

The combined stats from both encounters confirm that Winstanley is a Striker (Hit 87.5% of the time), and Kaspard, the Cleric Leader, is not (Hit 57.14% of the time). To further demonstrate this a comparison between damage done shows Winstanley with 95 points of damage, 92 Grey, 91 Dirty, 67 McGyver & 29 Kaspard.

The Defender status also shows up in the fact that the PCs have taken a total of 125 points of damage, with McGyver (59) and Dirty (30) soaking up a total of 71.2% of the damage dealt. It's not a subconscious thing on the part of the DM, these two guys are generally to be found in the thickest part of the action, Marking & Divine Challenging (when McGyver remembers) the bad guys every chance they can.

When all the PCs are at second level I will endeavour to look at each PC in turn, the data for their different attack modes- success rates, average damage dealt etc.

Something to check as the encounters mount is the amount of damage the PCs inflict in the opening rounds of combat. At present the PCs average 71 and 60.5 points of damage in the first and second rounds of combat respectively. This figure is halved in the following rounds, obviously- as with all of this data it is at present based on only two encounters, nine rounds of play- it is therefore unwise to attempt to formulate any (lasting) conclusions.

One thing I will also be looking at is the amount of time it takes to complete an Encounter at Level +1 against, for example, an Encounter at Level +4, to see also how this works as regards the XP reward- per minute and/or per turn.

I find this analysis really fascinating. I hope you keep posting it!

firesnakearies said:

I find this analysis really fascinating. I hope you keep posting it!

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I'll keep posting...

H1 Keep on the Shadowfell
Encounter #3 A2 Kobold Lair, Outside (snappy title).

The PCs are all Perception checks and caution as they approach the Kobold lair, which is good, they spot the Kobolds and remain hidden- discuss a moment and then go for the surprise attack. My poor Kobolds are oblivious to the terror that is about to unleashed upon them.



Good Guys
McGyver, Male Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut 1 (HP27)
Dirty Biskit, Male Dwarven Fighter 1 (HP31)
Kaspard, Female Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut 1 (HP26)
Winstanley Portico, Male Halfling Rogue 1 (HP25)
Grey Morlock, Male Human Wizard 1 (HP23)

Bad Guys 575XP Level 1 Encounter.
Kobold Minion Level 1 Minion [KM] (x10) (HP1)
Kobold Slink Level 1 Lurker [KSk] (HP24)
Kobold Slinger Level 1 Artillery [KSg] (HP24)
Kobold Dragonshield Level 2 Soldier [KD] (HP36)

Initiative 23 Winstanley & Kobold Dragonshield; 22 Kobold Slinger; 20 Dirty; 17 Grey; 16 Kobold Minions; 15 Kobold Slink; 12 McGyver; 2 Kaspard.

Surprise Round.

Winstanley- First Strike Deft Strike Combat Advantage KM3; Hit 11 damage DEAD.

Dirty- Charge KM1 Miss. KM1 Marked.

Grey- Scorching Burst KM1-2; Hit KM1 only 5 Fire damage- DEAD.

McGyver- Charge KM4; Hit 9 damage- DEAD.

Kaspard- Sacred Flame KM1; Hit 7 Radiant damage- DEAD & 3 Temp HP to McGyver.

Time to play 8 minutes including setting up map and minis.

End of Round-

Good Guys
McGyver, Male Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut 1 (HP27/27)
Dirty Biskit, Male Dwarven Fighter 1 (HP31/31)
Kaspard, Female Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut 1 (HP26/26)
Winstanley Portico, Male Halfling Rogue 1 (HP25/25)
Grey Morlock, Male Human Wizard 1 (HP23/23)

Bad Guys 575XP Level 1 Encounter.
Kobold Minion Level 1 Minion [KM] (x10) (HP1) 4 DEAD
Kobold Slink Level 1 Lurker [KSk] (HP24)
Kobold Slinger Level 1 Artillery [KSg] (HP24)
Kobold Dragonshield Level 2 Soldier [KD] (HP36)

Action Points 0 Total 0
Daily Powers 0 Total 0
Healing Surges 0 Total 0
2nd Winds 0 Total 0
Crits 0 Total 0

Comment: The Minions are back, for some reason they really love Minions- they're so... satisfied every time one drops, personally I don't think they're seeing the bigger picture but hey-ho, if it makes the players grin I'm all for it.

Hmm, minions are what area effects were designed for, i remember when we got suprise on this fight and went to take down the tough ones first.
Well we will see the end result of this, its an interesting read, hope everyone is having fun.

Aran Thule said:

Hmm, minions are what area effects were designed for, i remember when we got suprise on this fight and went to take down the tough ones first.
Well we will see the end result of this, its an interesting read, hope everyone is having fun.

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The PCs didn't spot the tough ones and as I'm using minis I only put on the map the ones they can see, which has lead to harsh words from the players in the past. Not too harsh mind you...

Also forgot to post the map previously, rectified.

H1 Keep on the Shadowfell
Encounter #3 A2 Kobold Lair, Outside (snappy title).

Round.#1

Winstanley- First Strike Combat Advantage Deft Strike KM5; Hit 18 damage- DEAD. Move into bushes and attempt to Hide.

KD- In middle of Magic Circle. Shouts challenges to the PCs. Readies Action.

KSg- Move. Sling Glue Pot McGyver; Miss. Shift back.

Dirty- Move. Charge KD- Triggers Readied Action- Shortsword Dirty (with bonus from Sacred Circle); Miss. Charge KD; Hit 7 damage (29 HP). KD Marked.

Grey- Move. Scorching Burst KM8-9; Hit KM9 8 Fire damage- DEAD.

KM1- DEAD.

KM2- DEAD.

KM3- DEAD.

KM4- DEAD.

KM5- DEAD.

KM6- Move. Combat Advantage Dirty Spear; Miss.

KM7- Move. Javelin Dirty; Miss.

KM8- Move. Spear Dirty; Miss.

KM9- DEAD.

KM10- Move protect KSg. Javelin Dirty; Miss.

KSk- Double move Hidden around the back of PCs.

McGyver- Move. Valiant Strike KM6; Miss. Dragon Breath KM7-8; Hit KM8 only 2 Fire damage- DEAD.

Kaspard- Move. Sacred Flame KM6; Miss.

Time to play 10 minutes.

End of Round-

Good Guys
McGyver, Male Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut 1 (HP27/27)
Dirty Biskit, Male Dwarven Fighter 1 (HP31/31)
Kaspard, Female Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut 1 (HP26/26)
Winstanley Portico, Male Halfling Rogue 1 (HP25/25)
Grey Morlock, Male Human Wizard 1 (HP23/23)

Bad Guys 575XP Level 1 Encounter.
Kobold Minion Level 1 Minion [KM] (x10) (HP1) 7 DEAD
Kobold Slink Level 1 Lurker [KSk] (HP24)
Kobold Slinger Level 1 Artillery [KSg] (HP24)
Kobold Dragonshield Level 2 Soldier [KD] (HP29/36)

Action Points 0 Total 0
Daily Powers 0 Total 0
Healing Surges 0 Total 0
2nd Winds 0 Total 0
Crits 0 Total 0

Comment: Well, I didn't hit once, and the queue of Minions failing to land a blow on Dirty must be going to his head. Having said that Dirty was confused by the Kobold Dragonshield's Readied Action- he'd not thought of that, although I'd explained the rule previously.

H1 Keep on the Shadowfell
Encounter #3 A2 Kobold Lair, Outside (snappy title).

Round.#2

Winstanley- In same trees as KSk. Spots KSk, who hasn't seen him- Stealth 23. Move. Positioning Strike with Combat Advantage; Hit 14 damage (10 HP bloodied) & Slides KSk out into the open- nice work.

KD- Shortsword (with Magic Circle bonus) Dirty; Miss.

KSg- Sling Glue Pot Dirty; Hit 7 damage (24 HP) & Immobilised. Shift back.

Dirty- Cleave KD; Miss. KD Marked. Save vs Immobilised- Fail.

Grey- Move. Burning Hands KM7&10 & KSg; Hit KM10 11 Fire damage- DEAD & KSg 11 Fire damage (13 HP).

KM1- DEAD.

KM2- DEAD.

KM3- DEAD.

KM4- DEAD.

KM5- DEAD.

KM6- Combat Advantage Spear Dirty; Miss.

KM7- Move. Spear Grey; Miss.

KM8- DEAD.

KM9- DEAD.

KM10- DEAD.

KSk- Shift & Slide KD out. AoO Dirty on KD; Hit 9 damage (20 HP). KSk Spear Dirty Combat Advantage; Hit 12 damage (12 HP bloodied).

McGyver- Move. Combat Advantage Valiant Strike KM6; Hit 6 damage- DEAD.

Kaspard- Move. Healing Word +8 HP Dirty (27 HP). Sacred Flame KM7; Miss.

Time to play 8 minutes.

End of Round-

Good Guys
McGyver, Male Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut 1 (HP27/27)
Dirty Biskit, Male Dwarven Fighter 1 (HP27/31)
Kaspard, Female Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut 1 (HP26/26)
Winstanley Portico, Male Halfling Rogue 1 (HP25/25)
Grey Morlock, Male Human Wizard 1 (HP23/23)

Bad Guys 575XP Level 1 Encounter.
Kobold Minion Level 1 Minion [KM] (x10) (HP1) 9 DEAD
Kobold Slink Level 1 Lurker [KSk] (HP10/24)
Kobold Slinger Level 1 Artillery [KSg] (HP13/24)
Kobold Dragonshield Level 2 Soldier [KD] (HP20/36)

Action Points 0 Total 0
Daily Powers 0 Total 0
Healing Surges 1 Total 1
2nd Winds 0 Total 0
Crits 0 Total 0

Comment: Easy for the PCs, the war of attrition again but the bad guys don't seem to have anything much to hurt the PCs with. Which will, of course, change as soon as they get inside the lair and I unleash Irontooth upon them.

Shouldn't have been an opportunity attack when the kobold slid his ally. Forced movement never provokes.

firesnakearies said:

Shouldn't have been an opportunity attack when the kobold slid his ally. Forced movement never provokes.

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LOL.

Well spotted, I figured that last night as I posted it, if there was a prize then you would have won it. I even went back to the PDF and looked up Shift & Slide to see if there was anything there that would have made me think it was anything other than forced movement- nope. My bad.

But hey, the PCs get another hit, and this is a nothing much encounter- the moment of fear for the PCs (and the DM) only comes in the last round when the bad guys left standing attempt to make it through the waterfall to warn- IRONTOOTH!

Cheers Goonalan