NEW (AGAIN)- Thunderspire Labyrinth- Stat analysis #25 Shrine to Baphomet

Keep on the Shadowfell- a statistical grind analysis.

Catchy title!

Actually the statistical analysis is a bit of a misnomer but it got you here, read on…

And so a strange thing happened the other day, I got to play D&D 4e around a table, not so strange you may think but it's actually the first time I've done this, and the first role-playing game for me that has involved people- real people, in the flesh for... seven years.

Revelation- burning bush time, just...

I had forgotten how good it was, how much easier than playing via Maptools & Skype, nothing against it of course but nothing beats having people there to gauge reactions properly, to bring the game alive.

That aside we played KOTS, none of the players had ever played 4e before, one guy has been playing D&D and various other RPGs for over 20 years, the other four players absolute noobs.

So I read the forums here and I see there's a fair amount of chatter about how long combat is taking (‘the grind’) so we decided to run a little experiment. We decided to pass around a laptop and record in note form everything that happened, how long it took, and the consequences of said actions- for every turn, and including the bad guys. I don't know what if anything this will tell me/you/us... but we did it so I'm going to share the info- like it or not.

We used pregen characters, I'm not sure if they were intended for use with KOTS, my filing system is not what it used to be, and we used the updated KOTS version latterly made free on the Wizards website.

So the characters in game are-

McGyver, Male Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut 1

The party leader, played by the guy with the 20+ years experience, name pronounced the same way as on The Simpsons, a detective style Paladin of Bahamut- investigating for good. See Sean Connery's character in “The Name of the Rose.”

Dirty Biskit, Male Dwarven Fighter 1

A fornicating drunken dwarf, Joe Pesci in any one of the myriad gangster flicks he's been in, here he’s off the bottle, and the tail; and laconic thrown in for good measure.

Kaspard, Female Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut 1

Sandra Bullock from Miss Congeniality, which I have of course never seen- I wouldn't tell you even if I had, you'd never look at me in the same way ever again. I figure it's a much watered down version of Sigourney Weaver's turn in any of the Alien films... only, y'know, for the kids.

Winstanley Portico, Male Halfling Rogue 1

Danny DeVito with a kind of reverse Tourettes, brought up by Sisters of the Light of Pelor, so in place of the swear words we get- “And then I CASSOCK went to the MITRE... M-M-MITRE GREAT BIG NOBBLY CASSOCK bathroom.”

Grey Morlock, Male Human Wizard 1

The cowled Mage says nothing- enigmatic and as dry as a Martini, think Christopher Walken in robes, looks a bit sissy but nobody is going to tell him that.

I had the players each think of an archetype to base their PCs on.

Anyway, that's the cast- not that they're going to get speaking parts, as I said at the start- just the fights and maybe and little of what happened between them. A walkthrough if you will- with stats, so there are going to be spoilers...

The back-story is McGyver has taken the job of tracking down Douven Staul, Fallcrest's senior Mage- Nimozaran, is paying well. He has therefore assembled a crack team (think the A Team) to go and get the job done. Most of the characters either owe McGyver money or a favour- the players each thought of their own reasons for saying yes to McGyver's request for help- from rescuing from the law (Winstanley), to rescuing from a bottle (Dirty). They all had a reason to put their life on the line for the Dragonborn.

So have a look/read, see what you think, is this something people would be interested in reading or is it just too dry; I’ll post the first four encounters or so and then judge the response. If there are bits you don’t understand then just ask, if there are things that I need to add (and I have the info) then I’ll make the changes.

And so to Winterhaven they go...

Session 1 Encounter 1

Session 1.
H1 Keep on the Shadowfell
Encounter #1 On The Road: Kobold Brigands



Players call for active perception check before the map has even been unfolded, the bastards roll high, lowest 19- and we're into the first combat encounter, and without a surprise round, in fact the PCs can see- Kobold Minion (x3), Kobold Slinger and a Kobold Dragonshield.

Good Guys
McGyver, Male Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut 1 (HP27)
Dirty Biskit, Male Dwarven Fighter 1 (HP31)
Kaspard, Female Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut 1 (HP26)
Winstanley Portico, Male Halfling Rogue 1 (HP25)
Grey Morlock, Male Human Wizard 1 (HP23)

Bad Guys 475XP Level 1 Encounter.
Kobold Minion Level 1 Minion [KM] (x5) (HP1)
Kobold Slinger Level 1 Artillery [KS] (HP24)
Kobold Dragonshield Level 2 Soldier [KD] (x2) (HP36)

Initiative 22 Winstanley; 21 Kobold Slinger; 16 Kaspard; 14 Dirty; 9 Kobold Dragonshields & Kobold Minions; 8 Grey; 3 McGyver

Players told Winterhaven is in sight, end of the day- this is your only combat encounter, go hog-crazy with it, they do...

Round #1.

Winstanley- Move. First Strike Combat Advantage Daily Trick Strike KS with Sneak; Hit 23 damage (KS on 1 HP bloodied). Action Point Sly Flourish KS; Hit 11 damage- KS DEAD.

KS- DEAD.

Kaspard- Move. Lance of Faith KD2; Miss. Spots 2nd KD.

Dirty- Move. Daily Brute Strike KD2; Hit 23 damage (KD2 13 HP bloodied). KD2 Marked. Action Point Reaping Strike KD2; Miss 3 damage (KD2 10 HP bloodied).

KD1- Move. Shortsword Dirty; Hit 9 damage (Dirty 22 HP).

KD2- Shortsword Dirty; Hit 6 damage (Dirty 16 HP).

KM1- Charge Spear Winstanley; Hit 4 damage (Winstanley 21 HP).

KM2- Charge Spear Winstanley; Hit 4 damage (Winstanley 17 HP).

KM3- Move. Throw Javelin Winstanley; Miss. Shift back.

KM4- Move. Throw Javelin Dirty; Miss. Shift back.

KM5- Charge Spear Dirty; Hit 4 damage (Dirty 12 HP bloodied).

Grey- Scorching Burst KD1-2 & KM5; Hit KM5 only 8 Fire- DEAD. Move. Action Point- Action Surge +3 To Hit. Burning Hands KD1-2; Hit KD1 only 12 damage -5 Resist = 7 Fire damage (KD1 29 HP).

McGyver- Move. Dragon Breath KM1-2; Hit KM1 only 6 Fire damage- DEAD. Daily Paladin's Judgement KD1; Miss- Dirty spends Healing Surge (19 HP).

Time to play 15 minutes including setting up map and minis.

End of Round-

Good Guys
McGyver, Male Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut 1 (HP27/27)
Dirty Biskit, Male Dwarven Fighter 1 (HP19/31)
Kaspard, Female Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut 1 (HP26/26)
Winstanley Portico, Male Halfling Rogue 1 (HP17/25)
Grey Morlock, Male Human Wizard 1 (HP23/23)

Bad Guys 475XP Level 1 Encounter.
Kobold Minion Level 1 Minion [KM] (x5) (HP1) 2 DEAD
Kobold Slinger Level 1 Artillery [KS] (HP24) DEAD
Kobold Dragonshield Level 2 Soldier [KD] (x2) (HP10/36 & 29/36)

Action Points 3
Daily Powers 3
Healing Surges 1
2nd Winds 0
Crits 0

Comment: I asked for it, the Kobold Slinger dead in moments, and after me taking a minute or two to describe the clay projectiles he had ready to unleash- sheesh. Regardless, got the players into the habit (I hope) of spending their dailies, or at least aware of their potential. To note, I was accused of being a cheat when I revealed Dragonshield #2 & Minions #4 & #5, I hadn't put them on the map at the start of the encounter- some of the players thought I'd added to the encounter because they'd killed my Kobold Slinger. I told them that this wasn't the case, the creatures just had not been spotted by the PCs. However that didn't mean I wouldn't add to an encounter in the future if I thought it needed it, or I just felt like it; in truth I almost never do this.

H1 Keep on the Shadowfell
Encounter #1 On The Road: Kobold Brigands

Round #2

Winstanley- Sly Flourish KM2; Hit 8 damage- DEAD. Move to KM.

KS- DEAD.

Kaspard- Lance of Faith KD2; Hit 8 Radiant damage (2 HP bloodied). Healing Word +6 HP Winstanley- FULL. Move to KM.

Dirty- Cleave KD2; Hit 8 damage- DEAD & 3 damage KD1 (26 HP) & Marked. Shift round KD1- Dragonshield Tactics- shifts away. AoO: Miss. 2nd Wind (26 HP).

KD1- Move. Shortsword Dirty; Hit 4 damage (Dirty 22 HP). Shift away.

KD2- DEAD.

KM1- DEAD.

KM2- DEAD.

KM3- Move. Spear Winstanley; Hit 4 damage (21 HP). Shift away.

KM4- Move. Spear Kaspard; Hit 4 damage (22 HP). Shift away.

KM5- DEAD.

Grey- Move. Daily Acid Arrow KD1; Hit 13 Acid damage & ongoing 5 (13 HP bloodied).

McGyver- Move. Radiant Smite KD1; Hit 13 Radiant damage- DEAD.

Time to play 8 minutes.

End of Round-

Good Guys
McGyver, Male Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut 1 (HP27/27)
Dirty Biskit, Male Dwarven Fighter 1 (HP22/31)
Kaspard, Female Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut 1 (HP22/26)
Winstanley Portico, Male Halfling Rogue 1 (HP21/25)
Grey Morlock, Male Human Wizard 1 (HP23/23)

Bad Guys 475XP Level 1 Encounter.
Kobold Minion Level 1 Minion [KM] (x5) (HP1) 3 DEAD
Kobold Slinger Level 1 Artillery [KS] (HP24) DEAD
Kobold Dragonshield Level 2 Soldier [KD] (x2) DEAD

Action Points 0 Total 3
Daily Powers 1 Total 4
Healing Surges 1 Total 2
2nd Winds 1 Total 1
Crits 0 Total 0

Comment: The clear up begins, the fight is already over.

Interesting. I've subscribed to this thread.

H1 Keep on the Shadowfell
Encounter #1 On The Road: Kobold Brigands

Round #3

Winstanley- Sly Flourish KM3; Hit 11 damage- DEAD. Move to KM4 (last bad guy).

KS- DEAD.

Kaspard- Lance of Faith KM4; Miss. Move to KM4.

Dirty- Move. Spinning Sweep KM4; Hit 10 damage- DEAD.

Time to play 3 minutes.
Total time to play 26 minutes.

End of Combat-

Good Guys
McGyver, Male Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut 1 (HP27/27)
Dirty Biskit, Male Dwarven Fighter 1 (HP22/31)
Kaspard, Female Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut 1 (HP22/26)
Winstanley Portico, Male Halfling Rogue 1 (HP21/25)
Grey Morlock, Male Human Wizard 1 (HP23/23)

Bad Guys 475XP Level 1 Encounter.
Kobold Minion Level 1 Minion [KM] (x5) (HP1) DEAD
Kobold Slinger Level 1 Artillery [KS] (HP24) DEAD
Kobold Dragonshield Level 2 Soldier [KD] (x2) (HP36) DEAD

Action Points 0 Total 3
Daily Powers 0 Total 4
Healing Surges 0 Total 2
2nd Winds 0 Total 1
Crits 0 Total 0

Comment: Encounter played well, easy victory- PCs now aware of what they can do when they up the damage ratio courtesy of Action Points and Daily Powers. Also, hopefully, get them to appreciate the Perception roll.

Stats: While the Kobolds managed to land 80% of their attack rolls they only got to make 10 attacks, half of them against Dirty (Defender) who just soaked it up and asked for more. The PCs on the other hand landed 59.09% of their attacks, with Winstanley (Striker) connecting every time he attacked (Winstanley (Striker) 100%- 4 from 4; Dirty (Defender) 60%; McGyver (Defender) & Grey (Controller) 50% & Kaspard (Leader) 33.33%). The PCs however made 22 attack rolls in the space of three rounds, thanks to the use of action points. While the Kobolds were dishing out 13 hit points damage per round the PCs were averaging 53.33 hit points damage per round- 12.31 points of damage per hit, that may prove to be up there for first level characters. Once again thanks to the use of action points.

Winstanley came out on top averaging 17.67 points of damage per round, Dirty second with 15.67, and Grey third with 11 points of damage per round. The Kobolds combined only had 101 hit points- a slaughter, in which they only managed to inflict 39 points of damage on the PCs in reply- I guess that's what comes of letting the PCs unleash hell on a Level 1 Encounter, still made everyone present grin.

As the fights add up then the totalled data will inevitably provide further insights, I think it will be good to compare results for the PCs at Level 1, against the results at Level 2, Level 3, and on. I am unsure exactly as to what I am trying to show with this, partially because I am only doing the maths as I go along- I haven't added things up ahead of time so as to appear smarter than I am at the conclusion.

I think I want to know what grind is, I've read a lot of columns here at ENWorld that talk about grind and obviously I've experienced it for myself, I think. Does grind come about just when PCs are up against Level +n encounters, is it inevitable, is it wholly or partially subject to the roll of a dice. For example we were grinding through an encounter last Saturday (10th round of combat, over an hour in the one fight) when I rolled a crit on the PCs Defender, who up until that point was blocking a doorway and keeping a group of reinforcements at bay. The Defender hit the deck and panic ensued, all the more memorable (the PCs eventually won through) because of the six or so rounds spent holding station and grinding the bad guys down. Is this grind- the six rounds spent employing defensive tactics to minimalise the monsters attack capabilities? Do the PCs chose grind rather than risk defeat?

I've taken advice from other players and DMs here- calling fights when the end is seemingly inevitable, note this always happens when the PCs are winning, and never when the monsters have the players on the ropes- we always play the later encounters out. In my own games I have found that waving the fights when the outcome seems inevitable to be a little bothersome, unless the PCs are happy to forfeit say a Healing Surge each. In KOTS we played out every fight to its conclusion, and sometimes things don't go as planned for the PCs, even when the fight looks to be over. When I waved fights I found myself having to then increase the difficulty of the following encounters as the PCs seemed always to be able to maintain a reserve of Healing Surges and Daily Powers to call upon- which sometimes lead to more grind. Harder encounters often lead to a more conservative approach- it's a balancing act.

I found that the final turns of a fight often sap just enough of the players resources to make the next fight, or the one after that, infinitely more interesting, the conclusion all the more climactic, the price for this is grind in some of the earlier fights, at least in my games. I've been playing 4e since it came out, the most memorable fights IMHO came when the players were prevaricating as to whether to attempt the last fight or not- one player with no Healing Surges, several others without Daily Powers, and just the other side of the door- victory, glory, the treasure, the reward and possibly their deaths.

And grind, well when I played using Maptools & Skype then things moved much slower, a four hour session with Level 11 characters perhaps had room enough for two combat encounters, with not much either side of them. The grind exacerbated by the fact the players were in the Pyramid of Shadows, and hindered by technology (at times), and more often by real life that continued apace in the background, and often moved to the foreground, with players (and the DM) having to be elsewhere for a moment (or two).

Around the table my perception of grind is changing, it's often the gap between the dramatic opening rounds (surprise and its aftermath) and the closing rounds (sometimes climactic) when the PCs are having to chip away at the bad guys and weather whatever storm I have devised. Grind now is often opting for the safer option, it's more bearable these days- but that's because around the table all of the fights go a lot quicker, at least they have so far; then again we haven't hit Level 11, or the Pyramid of Shadows yet.

Feel free to add any comments or observations, if there's a particular piece of data you wish for me to map over the course of this experiment then just ask- if I can, I will.

firesnakearies said:

Interesting. I've subscribed to this thread.

Click to expand...

Sorry didn't see your reply at first.

Thanks for commenting, hopefully the experiment will prove... well, we'll see.

I'll be interested to see how long the fights take them when they're doing several in one day.

firesnakearies said:

I'll be interested to see how long the fights take them when they're doing several in one day.

Click to expand...

Well hang on then because a monster fight is coming up in a while, but for now-


Winterhaven.

The PCs arrive in town and settle into Wrafton’s Inn, their new base of operations- things go well initially with McGyver and Kaspard taking the lead, the locals are bought refreshments (particularly Eilian the Old) and sure enough they remember Douven Staul, the PCs quarry. Directions are given, a map drawn- Douven was purportedly heading for an ancient dragon burial site. The PCs plan to check it out in the morning.

Kaspard visits with Sister Linora of the Church of Avandra, the good sister agrees to support the PCs (with a few Potions of Healing) if and after they clear up the towns Kobold problem.

The group meets with Rond Kelfem, the head of the local militia, to talk about the Kobold problem- Rond will organise for the PCs to visit with Lord on their return from the dragon burial site, ostensibly to offer their services vis-à-vis the Kobold problem.

Everything, in short, goes well.

Until…

Dirty hits the bottle, easily provoked into a drinking game by a beautiful Elf, Ninaran, the ex-sot Dwarf finishes the evening, minus trousers/pants et al, dancing on a table singing “I fell in to a burning ring of fire…”, over and over. There’s a little contretemps when the Inn has to close and eventually Dirty is taken away to spend a night in the cells. No charges, he will be released in the morning, after he has sobered up.

No, that’s not it…

Winstanley chats to a few people in the Inn and then absences himself for the rest of the evening- taking the opportunity to break into one of the tenement houses within the town, the burglary is successful however his victim is very poor and so the takings are slim.

Not content, and on a roll, Winstanley then breaks into Thair Coalstriker’s Forge, on the look out for anything of worth. I improvised a Skill Challenges for the break-ins, alas the second one didn’t go so well, and Winstanley is caught red-handed by the enraged Dwarven Smith- the militia save the Halfling from a beating. But not from a trip to the cells.

An hour or so later McGyver, Kaspard & Grey Morlock, all having been woken from their beds, find themselves facing Lord Padraig, who has also just been woken, the meeting is short and to the point. The PCs can forget about going to the dragon burial site, they’ve been tasked with putting an end to the Kobold menace, and Lord Padraig is not taking no for an answer.

Tomorrow- back to the stats.

Goonalan said:

Everything, in short, goes well.

Until…

Dirty hits the bottle, easily provoked into a drinking game by a beautiful Elf, Ninaran, the ex-sot Dwarf finishes the evening, minus trousers/pants et al, dancing on a table singing “I fell in to a burning ring of fire…”, over and over. There’s a little contretemps when the Inn has to close and eventually Dirty is taken away to spend a night in the cells. No charges, he will be released in the morning, after he has sobered up.

No, that’s not it…

Click to expand...

Haha, nice. Sounds like fun.

firesnakearies said:

Haha, nice. Sounds like fun.

Click to expand...

I devised a very simple Skill Challenge- basically a series of Endurance checks with cumulative penalties which on failure would lead to another random Skill Check...

So fail Endurance, roll a D10 and employ said skill in some dramatic, and ultimately stupid way, e.g. Random Skill to be employed = Acrobatics.

Dirty has to come up with some odd move requiring an Acrobatics check, from memory this was balancing a pint of beer on his head and dancing on a table, apply aforementioned penalties- roll dice, tell Dave who plays Dirty what actually transpires- Dirty crashes to the floor, knocking patrons flying, takes d4 damage and must make an immediate Athletics check to cover his failure and move into a break-dance style routine.

The only way to win the Skill Challenge was to not play it...

Kind of like real life as regards alcohol consumption.