New character? Hybrid Fighter/Warlord or MC Fighter/Warlord or Warlord/Fighter

ourchair · Jun 6, 2010

So I've decided in my current campaign -- where I am the only guy in a party composed of girls playing ditzy-brained rangers, clerics and swordmages -- I want to junk my wizard. It's the second time I've played a wizard and I've decided I'm not much of a controller person.

I'm more into defenders and playing heavies, but I also like leaders. And now my DM GF insists I should roll up a Dragonborn to contrast against our relatively fey racial makeup (eladrin, half-elf and elf).

The thing is, I can't decide on a class that satisfies me on the level of fluff and min-max. Any suggestions? Right now I'm torn between a Hybrid Fighter/Warlord or a Warlord MCed to Fighter or a Fighter MCed to Warlord.

Any thoughts on the possible combos?

Mentat55 · Jun 6, 2010

Is the ranger melee or ranged? How about the cleric? Asking because, generally, melee warlords work best with a fair complement of melee fighters.

Given your party composition, I'd probably shade towards a fighter MC warlord, or a fighter/warlord hybrid, since the party probably would benefit more from another defender than another leader.

ourchair · Jun 6, 2010

Mentat55 said:
Is the ranger melee or ranged? How about the cleric? Asking because, generally, melee warlords work best with a fair complement of melee fighters.

Given your party composition, I'd probably shade towards a fighter MC warlord, or a fighter/warlord hybrid, since the party probably would benefit more from another defender than another leader.

I'm sure player experience matters too. Two of the characters are played by newbs.
This game is basically an introductory campaign, so they are playing point-buy pregens. The rest are simply custom made point-buy.

The ranger is a melee-based two weapon fighter and her grasp of rules is fast growing. The experienced player (other than myself) is playing the cleric. Plays well, but is a melee pacifist healer, and she is therefore unable to contribute to damage output when monsters are bloodied.

The swordmage is our weak spot. She hasn't completely grasped the idea of defending and mark abuse yet. As a defender vet, it bugs me... so I think your suggestion of making defender (fighter) the primary role is a sound one.

I'm actually tempted to play a swordmage too, but I don't want to steal her thunder by playing the same class she plays better, as it would probably be demoralizing and uncool for her.

Did you have any other reasons why the party stands to benefit from a defender over a leader (as opposed to a controller - bleah - or another striker?)

Stalker0 · Jun 6, 2010

ourchair said:
I'm sure player experience matters too. Two of the characters are played by newbs.
This game is basically an introductory campaign, so they are playing point-buy pregens. The rest are simply custom made point-buy.

Then I would go much more fighter than warlord.

Leaders added complexity to the rest of the group. You will give them buffs and they have to remember to use them. With new players, that's more difficult.

As a defender, you can bail them out when they make bad decisions, and most of your powers are all about you.

Pardon the pun, but I think its a "no brainer".

Mentat55 · Jun 6, 2010

Well, I look at the party composition -- swordmage, TWF ranger, pacifist cleric -- and that screams too little damage to me. A fighter can do near striker damage, and would make the front line a bit more robust, and swordmages seem to do better when they have another defender to play off of. The other big weakness I see is a lack of ranged attack capability -- by turning in your wizard, the party seems to have practically no ability to attack at range consistently or effectively.

A pacifist cleric is a very good healer, so having another leader might not be as synergistic as someone that can do damage, defend, or attack at range. Granted, warlords can also help the party a lot by throwing around extra attacks and big bonuses, so it could work in such a melee-heavy party. But that also depends on whether the swordmage has a good basic attack -- if not, then you can only really count on the ranger, which is not enough.

ourchair · Jun 6, 2010

Mentat55 said:
swordmages seem to do better when they have another defender to play off of.

I don't understand. How so? (sincere question, not a sarcastic challenge) When it comes to having 2 defenders, I'm worried about mark management but considering that the swordmage hasn't been using her marks I'm not worried.

Mentat55 said:
The other big weakness I see is a lack of ranged attack capability -- by turning in your wizard, the party seems to have practically no ability to attack at range consistently or effectively.

The ranger has a pretty high DEX in spite of her melee tendencies, so she does pretty fine with a bow, and it's not too late for her to start building towards a greater focus on ranged attacks.

My Girlfriend is the DM (effortlessly worked in plug, ka-chunk!), and she's already concerned about the swordmage, so I imagine she's going to try to develop elegant solutions to allow her to swap in a new character with a class better suited to her personality.

The cleric seems to be going laser-style, (Gaze of Defiance, Lance of Faith) so she can contribute to our ranged coverage as it is.

Stalker0 said:
Then I would go much more fighter than warlord.

Leaders added complexity to the rest of the group. You will give them buffs and they have to remember to use them. With new players, that's more difficult.

As a defender, you can bail them out when they make bad decisions, and most of your powers are all about you.

Pardon the pun, but I think its a "no brainer".

Your efficient display of astounding logic is indisputable.

ourchair · Jun 7, 2010

Okay I'm going to go with pure fighter. Some of the powers are just too exciting to pass up, and I'm not sure if I want to fight too hard for Commander's Strike AND Combat Challenge/Combat Superiority.

I've put together a build that involves two weapon fighting --- and I'll be honest, I'm trying to be as optimized as I can --- but everyone knows two weapon fighting is substantially nerfed from previous editions.

I love Dual Strike, but it feels like there's very little support for having a light blade in each hand (rapier in one, short sword in the other) in terms of powers. Am I making a mistake here? Should I just go with a shield or two handed weapon?

Kilrah Level 8
Dragonborn, Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Lightning

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 16, Dex 15, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 15, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 11.

AC: 22 Fort: 21 Reflex: 17 Will: 15
HP: 73 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +12, Intimidate +12, Athletics +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +3, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +4, Heal +4, History +5, Insight +4, Nature +4, Perception +4, Religion +3, Stealth +6, Streetwise +5, Thievery +6

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 4: Agile Superiority
Level 6: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 8: Two-Weapon Defense

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Funneling Flurry
Fighter daily 1: Villain's Menace
Fighter utility 2: Boundless Endurance
Fighter encounter 3: Rain of Blows
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Settling the Score
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It

ITEMS
Scale Armor, Short sword, Rapier

Saagael · Jun 7, 2010

Here's a tempest fighter I made a while ago that I wanted to use. I originally used an elf for equal parts strength, dexterity and wisdom, but dragonborn would be fun since you have the dragon breath feats you can use. The big question will be whether your DM lets you use a weapon from the Eberron guide. They are like light blades on steroids: Off-hand, heavy thrown (5/10), 1d6 damage and in the heavy blade group. This lets you get away with Heavy Blade Opportunity later on for Dual Strike fun.

The power selection is a little different, but I generally dislike fighter utility powers, so I took skill powers for more RP fun. If you'd like. I have a fully decked out version of this character I can post.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 8
Dragonborn, Fighter
Build: Tempest Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: Tempest Technique
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Fire

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 14, Dex 17, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 14, Dex 15, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 11.

AC: 21 Fort: 21 Reflex: 18 Will: 15
HP: 71 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +10, Intimidate +12, Athletics +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +3, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +4, Heal +4, History +5, Insight +4, Nature +4, Perception +4, Religion +3, Stealth +6, Streetwise +5, Thievery +6

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Drow Long Knife)
Level 2: Agile Superiority
Level 4: Enlarged Dragon Breath
Level 6: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 8: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Cleave
Fighter encounter 1: Funneling Flurry
Fighter daily 1: Villain's Menace
Fighter utility 2: Inspiring Fortitude
Fighter encounter 3: Hesitation Slash
Fighter daily 5: Dervish's Challenge
Fighter utility 6: Mighty Sprint
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It

ITEMS
Drow Long Knife (2), Chainmail
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Gradine · Jun 7, 2010

ourchair said:
The swordmage is our weak spot. She hasn't completely grasped the idea of defending and mark abuse yet. As a defender vet, it bugs me... so I think your suggestion of making defender (fighter) the primary role is a sound one.

I'm actually tempted to play a swordmage too, but I don't want to steal her thunder by playing the same class she plays better, as it would probably be demoralizing and uncool for her.

I'm glad that this is something you are taking into consideration. I was about to offer a warning about playing another defender along those lines; when an experienced player shows up a new player at whatever the newbie is trying to do (be it same class or even same role) it can be pretty demoralizing.

It seems as though you and your girlfriend are taking the best possible route; you taking over as pure defender gives the DM and your fellow player an opportunity to find another class/role that works better for her. An elegant solution and one that should serve as an example for other groups trying to ease in a new player.

Aulirophile · Jun 7, 2010

ourchair said:
I don't understand. How so? (sincere question, not a sarcastic challenge) When it comes to having 2 defenders, I'm worried about mark management but considering that the swordmage hasn't been using her marks I'm not worried. .

Swordmages primary mark strategy is Mark and run away, since they don't have to do anything to maintain it. Mark the biggest thing around, then go help the other defender get Flanking or something. Shielding? Should go off every round, since you're as far away from the thing you Marked as you can get. Assault swordmages take a lot of teleport powers, so even if you teleport to enforce your mark every round, ditto. I would never recommend playing an Ensnaring Swordmage, so not sure how that works out.