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Wednesday, 23rd June, 2010, 11:31 AM #141
The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)
blog post GMSkarka criticises this view, of RPGers as artists, as "delusional garbage". I think maybe his language is a little too strong, but I find it hard to reconcile the notion of RPGers as artists with the really obvious evidence of consumerist culture in the RPG hobby - completist purchasers, for example, and the hype that surrounds every release of a new book or set of minis, or the ongoing complaints about the crappiness of WotC modules. If we really are all painters looking for some paints and canvasses, why do we care about the quality of WotC's modules? Or what WotC has done to the 4e Realms?
It seems to me that D&D players, at least - or the online ones, anyway - are actually pretty big consumers of (i) story elements written and marketed by commercial publishers, and (ii) of more-or-less useless junk that is marketed by those same publishers simply on the basis that it carries a certain logo or references a certain story element.
It would be different if RPGers were mostly interested in buying system material to support their own story-telling - Ron Edwards's high-octane premises and system ideas - but that doesn't seem to be the case. WotC has just restructure its D&D Worlds team to give them more prominence in the organisation. And as far as I can see, Paizo and White Wolf make their money almost exclusively by selling stories.
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Wednesday, 23rd June, 2010, 11:32 AM #142
Defender (Lvl 8)
The trouble with the above claim is that i have been hearing it for 20 years or more, (ever since Lorraine Williams ran TSR) and I have never seen any evidence that it is true.
So without some hard numbers, I'm going to take this with a pinch of salt.
Wednesday, 23rd June, 2010, 11:54 AM #143
Defender (Lvl 8)
Now, I get what he is saying, but in my experience it is universal on the internet. Now this tidbit
[quote from blog] The core fandom demographic crosses over with the social media power user demographic, providing unprecedented influence on creative decisions. [/quote]
Now according to facebook there are 400 million active users worldwide and according to WoTC there are what 6 million rpger's active (can't find the thread, my search attempts keep crashing the search function - did find the news article that there are 1.5million D&D players)
So if the handfull of rpger are swamping out the great mass of Facebook users then, man you are doing your marketing wrong.
Wednesday, 23rd June, 2010, 12:58 PM #144
Minor Trickster (Lvl 4)
Wednesday, 23rd June, 2010, 01:14 PM #145
Frankly, I find Gareth's view on gaming offensive, contrary to the basic premise of RPGs as a bottom-up social hobby based on shared amateur creativity, and consider it doomed as a line of business. To the last I also say: good. High time for it. We need more people actively creating entertainment for themselves and their friends, and less staying with a model of passive consumption based on a one-way pro designer-->user relationship.
Coincidentally, what Gareth suggests is contrary to the widespread emergence of people creating computer game mods and levels, custom-tailoring digital entertainment, writing fan fiction or collaborating in RPG-like messageboard/IRC games. Whether the final products are any good is questionable - from a neutral standpoint, they are largely not - but what matters is the act of getting involved and sharing -- the same thing that had made roleplaying games the addictive hobby they became. At its heart, they are about you -- you the consumer/creator, and not the guy with the diplomas from Game Design Academy on his wall telling you what to do.
"5. If they do not wish to take a few risks, their characters should stay home and become shopkeepers and farmers.
Then wish them luck!" -- Gary Gygax: Shrine of the Kuo-Toa
F O M A L H A U T : Adventures in Weird Fantasy
Wednesday, 23rd June, 2010, 02:18 PM #146
The Great Druid (Lvl 17)
Personally, I think that the case that people are being "jerks" because they don't like something, and are vocal about it -- especially if it is something they perceive being done to something they care about -- is (at best) unproven.
We live in a culture where deceit is lauded, and honest opinion is "politically incorrect". I am of a mind that deception and manipulation is more "jerky". I could go farther in this, but I have no desire to break EN World's "no politics" ban.
Suffice it to say, no, I do not condone people being jerks. But I very much doubt that you and I would agree on who the real jerks are.
No longer associated with this site
Wednesday, 23rd June, 2010, 02:23 PM #147
Magsman (Lvl 14)
Still running a great game
Wednesday, 23rd June, 2010, 02:27 PM #148
Magsman (Lvl 14)
And, neither it nor your LotR example provide any evidence that it is true for gamers moreso than movie lovers.
If it is true so strongly amongst gamers then why are you compelled to use a non-gamer example to make the point? Again, you undermine the very point being argued.
Still running a great game
Wednesday, 23rd June, 2010, 02:35 PM #149
Myrmidon (Lvl 10)
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1) Erik Mona,
Classic, sir! Pure classic! Bravissimo!
2) Yes some RPGers are jerks...um...so? Anyone over the age of 25 who has NOT noticed about 15% of the Human Race are useless and/or buttholes, has either lived in a one hell of a lovely place, lucky begger, or has been high as a kite!
So, yes, some gamers are buttholes...same as any other section of Humanity.
I have known in RL, ONE gamer who was a munchkin, rules-lawyering, selfish, annoying jackass- deluxe, versus about 10 who weren't.
3) This does ineed seem corporate-management non-Human hyperbabble and whinging.
Yes, we'd all like the jerkwads not to moan, edition bash, put new folks off etc.
Same as we wish similar jerks didn't cause havoc at football, in pubs or whatever.
For every butthole, there's several folk encouraging others to play, see, here's a facet of life nitwits overlook:
this always makes it look like there are more ratbags in life than there actually are. We are literally programmed to notice, fear and avoid danger and problems, much more than we do the nice things, because the nice things won't chase us down and eat our livers, or in our case, harangue anyone who likes the new eidition, or whatever it is that gets the nitwit upset...which is about as painful as getting liver-eaten I'd imagineYou always notice the scumbags, more than you notice the nice folk, because the nice folk do you no harm.
And do NOT get me started on corporate psychology and the utter tosh there in. Jeesh.
4) I freely admit I am the stereotypical "basement dwelling sweaty fat beard geek"
Sometimes life drops "Captain Tripps" on your head.
I've loved D&D for decades, but now it's one of the few things I'm physically capable of doing, sort of, as I can rarely travel.
What little monies I have either goes on D&D, or art.
My bitching and ranting I reserve for health issues and politics, not D&D. D&D is about fun.
Politics/health are not fun.
I'm fair looking forward to DMing my pal's kids in a few years as they grow up, and release another bunch of D&D nerds on the planet, hehe.
5) And corporate attitudes and machinations can take a big run and jump back up into the flatulent bowels of a curry-slurping pit-fiend, form which they surely descended!
From long, bitter experience, there is nothing so assinine, stupid, blinkered, dangerous and evil in the whole damn world as "corporations" and the group mentalities they create and empower, sigh. Drow ain't got nothin' on 'em!
6) Only a nitwit treats a BIG paying customer with contempt. Sun-Tzu, anyone?
Like oh, try to use them or guide them in more effective manners.
That takes skill and tact, not corporate leet speak and contempt.
7) Gamers are of above average IQ. Corporate consumerism has problems with that when it shouldn't, if, it had half a brain itself (in general, which it doesn't, BP merely being one of a whole line of proofs of this, lol).
Part of the problem is that the corporate world just sees consumers as victims to fleece and use, rather than as the whole damn point of the game!
Selling is a game, "winning" isn't important, making a living and enjoying it is the game. The game itself IS the "candle", i.e. dealing with the customer and creating the product, rather than the damned Quarterlies.
Ah well, folk won't get that till it's way too late.
To quote a certain Mr Rotten:
"Do you like the taste of honey?
Isn't it best without the bees!"
Be one with your stereotype, or make yer own!
Wednesday, 23rd June, 2010, 02:47 PM #150
Orcus on an Off-Day (Lvl 22)
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ø Ignore Kamikaze Midget
Condone is probably not the best word, but accept might be close to the truth.
Politics stands out as an especially cantankerous area, and people have been crying about the death of democracy since Athens.
And it's not like the feature is unique to the internet. Go to a random barber shop/bar/church cookout and mention universal health care, and see where that conversation goes.
It's true that what edition of D&D someone plays should not be as important as the political issue du jour. The sense of proportion is all out of whack. The Lakers Riot will certainly cure you of the notion that trivial things cannot have disproportionate reactions.
I have a hard time seeing Malcolm's post as anything aside from, well, pretty much exactly what he decries. Sour grapes, as Eric's Grandma might put it. Sounds like when he did this: "We looked at the market at the time and determined that the service was pretty much tailor-made for roleplayers and that they were the most natural early adopters.", he misidentified the market, or perhaps when he did this: "we got actual tabletop gamers from the “leading edge” of the hobby", he attracted the wrong crowd.
I assume if you identified that your product was for political people, and you got people from the "leading edge of politics," you'd find that your assortment of outspoken senators and muckraking pundits was, indeed, a contentious group.
Same thing if you recruited YouTubers. Or comic book fans. Or people really into Ultimate Fighting. Or soccer hooligans. Or [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMdi-lOqDv8"]Lakers Fans[/ame].
And certainly a basketball game matters just about as much to the world as a D&D game.
When D&D fans burn a taxi because of 5e, call me.
Until then, these are just passionate people being passionate about something they do really like.
Which is a great thing, though it also basically makes for a fundamentally unpleasable fanbase.
Last edited by Kamikaze Midget; Wednesday, 23rd June, 2010 at 02:56 PM.