companies staying away from rpg gamers

Raven Crowking said:

I imagine that hardcore 1e AD&D grognards view expansion of the hobby in the same way -- willing to welcome new players, encouraging to new DMs, and interested in new subsystems that they believe are valuable to their games.

Click to expand...

Not every 1E AD&D grognard thinks this way.

Of the 1E AD&D grognards I know personally, a few of them hated any rules supplements books beyond the core PHB/DMG/MM1. These particular grognards also do not acknowledge the existence of any D&D/AD&D editions beyond 1988. They also do not acknowledge the existence of any modules which were not written/co-written by Gary Gygax.

As far as they're concerned, the 1E AD&D PHB/DMG/MM1 core books are "holy writ".

Vyvyan Basterd said:

I don't think anyone here is saying we should just accept this viewpoint or that it isn't irrational. But how do we change this perception? How can we show the outside marketers that the majority of us are not the Comic Book Guy?

Click to expand...

The only marketer I'm concerned about is the guy asking "How?" instead of saying "If." I'm unconcerned with the business decisions of producers who lack resolve, ideas, and long-term vision.

MrMyth said:

I've seen people talk about how they'd be interested in a new D&D cartoon show. I'd be eager to see another D&D movie, well-done.

Click to expand...

Ahh, well, that's the rub, isn't it? The D&D movie wasn't well done. D&D players did not flock to see it in large numbers because a) it was bad and b) we simply don't have large numbers. And if you're wondering why Hollywood isn't eager to make more D&D movies, you need look no further than that. (Although it did make enough money to justify one direct-to-DVD sequel.)

Raven Crowking said:

Specifically, what "cool stuff" are we talking about?

Click to expand...

This is the key question. I can't speak for anyone else, but I at least am not looking for novels and movies and transmedia and so forth from D&D. The comparison between RPG materials and an artist's paint and canvas is quite apt; neither the artist nor anyone else is interested in "Paint and Canvas: The Movie."

Give me new and better paint, canvas, and brushes. Give me better ways to reach potential viewers and fellow artists. Increase the number of artists and viewers. That's all the "cool stuff" I want from RPGs and the companies that make them.

MrMyth said:

What he does is share a true story (unless you think he is lying.) The experience of someone he knows - a client. And that man ran into a bunch of gamers and felt that they were jerks.

Click to expand...

Nobody has said he is lying. I think the consensus in the anti-article camp is mainly that the client lacks a finely calibrated sense of irony.

ExploderWizard said:

Advertising and selling things isn't a problem. A picky and educated consumer is the best friend to producers of quality product and the worst enemy of producers of crap. Many RPG fans are very vocal about stuff they like and dislike. This can be a blessing or a curse.

To those who see it as a curse-Stop producing crap.

Here endeth the lesson.

Click to expand...

It's a little more complicated than that in the RPG world because "crap" or "not crap" is likely to be much more subjective than in some other industries. Therre are few objective qualifications, with the exception of maybe editing or something, that gamers can actually glom onto.

Raven Crowking said:

I think we should first ask, "Why should we care?"

Click to expand...

If the collective "we" don't care how non-RPG products are delivered to us, why do "we" have such a negative reputation for raging against the results (LotR, X-Men movies, etc)?

ggroy said:

How much of the revenue is highly dependent on the Comic Book Guys buying stuff every month? What percentage of Comic Book Guys are also hardcore completionists, who buy almost everything in a particular product line?

Click to expand...

RPGs market to all RPGers, including CBGs. I don't think that's the issue here.

MrMyth said:

Which is a tricky thing to do - even if it is one we should do. I don't like how some people might act online, but I don't really have the right to drive someone from the hobby.

Click to expand...

Not the person, the behavior. How do "we" drive away the perception that this how "we" all act?

thecasualoblivion said:

Something I have seen is that Comic Book Guy behavior is just the tip of the iceberg, and the appearance of CBG behavior can often be contagious, drawing otherwise sane people into bad behavior.

Click to expand...

Yes, I'm guilty of being drawn into this myself at times.

It seems to me there's a bit of poorly-substantiated assertion going on. "We had a bad experience trying to build for RPG players," does not clearly extend to, "Bad RPG people like this are a major reason the RPG audience doesn't get much attention."

It would seem to me that the more argument would be that tabletop RPG audience doesn't get much attention because it isn't all that big a market. I don't argue that some of us behave poorly, but the generalization seems poorly supported.

MrMyth said:

1) Here is a story of something that happened to a client of his. He had a bad experience trying to attract gamers. He remembers the gamers he used to play with and had fun with, but those he ran into among the online crowd were hostile and difficult to handle, it was a better direction for the company to try and move entirely away from them.

2) His experience is not unique. There is a perception from the outside that the RPG demographic is, in many ways, toxic.

3) Those who have caused these perceptions are not the majority of gamers, but they are the most visible, and their behavior undermines the appeal of the gaming community to the outside world.

4) It would be really cool if we could change this. How can gamers be nicer people? Here are some ideas.

Click to expand...

I read something more like this:

1) Here is a story of something that happened to a client of his. He wanted to sell a product to gamers, but as those he ran into among the online crowd were hostile to this product and difficult to sell this product to, it was a better direction for the company to try and move entirely away from them.

1a) The gamers, rather than the product or the marketing, were to blame.

2) His experience is not unique. There is a perception from the outside that marketing to the RPG demographic is, in many ways, toxic.

(At this point, note that marketing a shoddy product to a critical audience is toxic. Marketing a superior product to a critical audience, however, is not. "Shoddy" and "superior" may be subjective, but if you have failed to understand what your target market wants, the fault lies in you, not your target market.)

3) Those who have caused these perceptions are not the majority of gamers, but they are the most visible, and their behavior undermines the appeal of the gaming community to marketers.

4) It would be really cool if we could change this.

(This is where I ask Why?)

5) How can gamers be nicer people to marketers? Here are some ideas.

At which point, "'You gamers should shut up and drink the corporate kool-aid like everyone else" becomes a very understandable reading. If you ignore that marketing lens, then the blog entry may look spiffy keen. If you do not ignore that marketing lens, it may look less spiffy keen.


RC

Raven Crowking said:

Hrm. I, personally, don't believe that D&D is a good medium for adapting into cartoons or movies. What I've seen of said attempts, thus far, have been dismal. FWIW, I'm happy with any well-done fantasy that can be used to inspire D&D, rather than hoping the D&D will produce well-crafted fantasy films.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, though.

Click to expand...

Honestly, that would be what I'd want out of such products - not something that rigidly copies the game, but a well-done fantasy show/movie that includes elements unique to D&D. Either setting elements, or unique D&D monsters, or just outlooks that call back to the gaming experience.

Now, what would be the benefit of such a production? It's a good question, but I don't think that it is that hard to answer. As a gamer, I'd enjoy it (assuming it was done well, of course.) It would give me something in the media that felt crafted in part for me, and my recognition of the unique D&D elements would make me able to appreciate it all the more.

But outside of that, it would also help the hobby grow. The hobby being Roleplaying Games in general, and specifically D&D - kids grow up enjoying the show, or adults like the movie, and that presents an opportunity to bring them into the game and the hobby.

It sounds like you feel that media-related tie-ins to the game do not in any way expand the brand awareness or provide the potential for new players. I'm not sure what I can say to convince you otherwise. I would think it self-evident that more awareness of the game, especially in a positive light, would only help to draw in more players, and I think most marketing research would support this.

For me, that is why we should care. Being able to connect to other media can help expand the game. Having outside interests trying to figure out ways to make us happy and acquire us an audience can help provide us with better tools to play the game.

I mean, consider the scenario that someone comes along with a tool that would port over perfectly as a virtual game table, or some other new electronic tool that would be great for the hobby. Like something with the Microsoft Surfaces or some such. And they say, "Hey, we've got this product, isn't it the sort of thing we could offer to the RPG crowd?"

And so maybe they could go on to open up discussion with WotC, and this brings to the gaming community the VTT that many people would be eager to see, one professionally designed and developed. Or something like the Microsoft Surfaces D&D project, in a more portable or accessible price range for gamers. Or any number of other innovations or new technologies that might be right around the corner.

If those companies have a product that could be awesome for gamers, but the perception of the gaming community drives them away, than that is a loss for us.

Now, do we need such products? Of course not - we already have every tool we need to keep gaming happily for decades to come, no matter what edition you prefer. That's one of the strengths of the game.

But it doesn't mean that new advancements and technologies to advance the game wouldn't be really nifty, and many of us would like to see them, and would hate to miss out because of a small but vocal subset of our crowd.

That's why we should care.

Again - the presence of those naysayers might not be a problem at all. That assertation has yet to be proven. But saying that even if it is, who cares? That the game doesn't need or desire advancements, innovations, or new technologies from outside? That's a really limited view, and not one that I think is good for the hobby.

eyebeams said:

I'd like RPG folks to be in the thick of things because I believe we have cool ideas and ways of doing things that fit perfectly with evolving trends, and work better than what's being developed by companies looking for IP-backed social networks, transmedia and such. RPGs have already been instrumental behind the scenes of some really big stuff. But the last time I sat in a boardroom fretting about a 50K+ user base target it was pretty painful to have to share this stuff while tiptoeing around examples they could Google, because it might hose the whole thing.

Click to expand...

I know this an old post from pages back, but I would love to go back to this since you probably missed and did not answer the questions I posted back on page 2. This idea of "RPG folks;" what does that mean? I play RPGs. Does that make me an RPG folk? I play computer games. So am I not a "Computer game folk" because I am an RPG folk? How do you classify people like this and what is it you are or were doing that makes you think calling on RPG folks specifically is important?

I'm really trying to understand what it is that makes tabletop RPG players potentially valuable as a community such that not having their input would diminish whatever end product they were trying to produce. If the product isn't specifically targeted towards tabletop RPGers but would somehow be of interest to many in that community, would it not be of interest to many of those same people but identified through some other demographic grouping?