companies staying away from rpg gamers - Page 25




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  1. #241
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    Magsman (Lvl 14)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven Crowking View Post
    You are right. Here was advertising prominently maquerading as a news item, and probably based upon a press release devised by WotC.

    That is, after all, a rather standard practice these days. Companies send out press releases to news agencies, which are disguised as news items, and they get used as filler because, frankly, it is cost effective to do so.

    Now, I am not going to get into whether or not WotC or 4e are good for "the industry" in the short term or the long term. What I am going to do is suggest that no one is under any obligation to prop up either "the industry" or WotC. No one is under any obligation to see an ad pretending to be news and help it reach its advertising objective.

    Nor did they tear "the industry" down; they had complaints about 4e.

    Nor is "the industry" the hobby.
    So you believe the gaming community as a whole is better suited by driving off potential new gamers, rather than risk them sitting down to play 4E? (And thus possibly getting involved in the game, and either continuing with D&D, in any of its forms, or moving on to other games entirely.)

    I mean, I really don't get how some people can see something like D&D Encounters, aimed at drawing in new gamers and providing a regular opportunity for casual players to get involved... and somehow this is a terrible thing, and that news about such an event is an example of WotC deception and deceit.

    Yes, dragging the edition war into the comments of an article tears the industry down. Because we are representing gamers as a whole, and when someone sees how these people are acting, they don't want anything to do with it. If you don't understand how that could scare off an outsider, I'm not sure what else there is to say.

 

  • #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyvyan Basterd View Post
    Nor do I. That is why I'd like to find a way to have our hobby not perceived incorrectly and why I do care to change that perception. The status quo is that we are nothing but geeks and losers, living in our mothers basements, pretending to be elves and that we should be marginalized in all areas of society except our own little niche.
    All other disagreements aside, I agree with this and would also like to change that perception. So, given that the jerkwads among us are not likely to stop being jerkwads, how shall the rest of us accomplish that?

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  • #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMSkarka View Post
    Ladies and Gentlemen: EXHIBIT A.
    Maybe you should listen to him. He's telling you exactly what you're competing against and how high the bar you want to get over is.
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  • #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven Crowking View Post
    Pick a percentage: 5%, 10%, 15%. No matter what percentage of people you think are jerks, it is your fault if you don't take that into account when you set up shop. No one else's.
    Agreed.

    Take the article as an example. The author and his client had what for lack of better term I'll call a pilot group that was apparently filled with jerks. How'd they come by this pilot group? Who vetted their participation?

    A client worth his salt would not blame the market for poor pilot group selection.

  • #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExploderWizard View Post
    To those who see it as a curse-Stop producing crap.

    Here endeth the lesson.
    Do we know if the example in the article was crap? After the change in strategy, was it successful?

    Quote Originally Posted by pawsplay View Post
    What is the alternative? Do you have some plan for getting people to stop being jerks? The way I see it, you can:

    a) not condone people being jerks, not accept it, and be unhappy about it, and people will continue to be jerks, or
    b) condone and accept it, come up with strategies for dealing with the reality of the situation, and people will continue to be jerks, but they will not bother YOU as much

    Take your pick.
    It seems like what Malcolm is saying is that many companies have taken option b, but he'd like it if Tabletop RPGers were more pleasing to marketeers. Given that he seems to be both a gamer and a marketeer, this is unsurprising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raven Crowking View Post
    I read something more like this:

    1) Here is a story of something that happened to a client of his. He wanted to sell a product to gamers, but as those he ran into among the online crowd were hostile to this product and difficult to sell this product to, it was a better direction for the company to try and move entirely away from them.
    Yep.

    1a) The gamers, rather than the product or the marketing, were to blame.
    I agree with this point in the post, if group A doesn't want someone's product, then that person isn't going to market to that group. Blame seems kind of strange word to use, but whatever.

    2) His experience is not unique. There is a perception from the outside that marketing to the RPG demographic is, in many ways, toxic.

    (At this point, note that marketing a shoddy product to a critical audience is toxic. Marketing a superior product to a critical audience, however, is not. "Shoddy" and "superior" may be subjective, but if you have failed to understand what your target market wants, the fault lies in you, not your target market.)
    Sometimes, it's easier to change your target market.

    3) Those who have caused these perceptions are not the majority of gamers, but they are the most visible, and their behavior undermines the appeal of the gaming community to marketers.
    I think your on to something. (Or maybe your just on something. But since I agree with your reading of the post, what am I on?)

    4) It would be really cool if we could change this.

    (This is where I ask Why?)
    Great question. The answer can, I think, be found in this sentence from the Malcolm's article:
    Quote Originally Posted by original article
    Meanwhile, the tabletop’s anti-intelligentsia are roaming Outer...Space complaining that they don’t get enough respect, service and other super-good stuff that nobody with a good long term business plan should be especially eager to provide.
    There are, apparently, people who aren't you or Corinth that complain that marketeers don't market to them. Then when marketeers market to them, they spend the least amount of money they can on the product and act in a way that drives off other customers.

    It seems to me that there are two rather obvious exceptions. One, is that if you make tabletop rpgs, then you need to listen to the complaints of tabletop rpgers. It's still a good idea to market to other people, to expand the customer base though.

    The other exception is people like you and Corinth. You don't care if people market to you, so you don't need to change this.

    5) How can gamers be nicer people to marketers? Here are some ideas.

    At which point, "'You gamers should shut up and drink the corporate kool-aid like everyone else" becomes a very understandable reading. If you ignore that marketing lens, then the blog entry may look spiffy keen. If you do not ignore that marketing lens, it may look less spiffy keen.
    Call me crazy, but it seems like some people like to be marketed to. If a person likes to be marketed to, it would behoove them act like an attractive audience. Since you don't seem to derive any enjoyment from being marketed to, this wouldn't apply to you.

    Like you, I believe that a health dose of cynicism towards marketing is a good thing. Like all things, I think it can be taken to far.
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  • #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanboy2000 View Post
    Like you, I believe that a health dose of cynicism towards marketing is a good thing. Like all things, I think it can be taken to far.
    Yep. I think this points to an observation one of the ENW moderators made recently. Too many topics here are discussed in extremes. The debate seems to be between the extremes of "being a silent consumer and drinking the corporate kool-aid" and "all types of critcal thinking and criticism of products is toxic."

    You can make smart decisions about products you buy and offer criticism to marketers without being a toxic consumer. There is a middle ground.
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  • #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crothian View Post
    So, you're calling Paizo a small business then? And what does that matter?
    26 full-time employees? That's not just small, that's tiny. That's an employment non-blip by any measure. 26 people making something I like (or dislike, or heck, don't even know about) is most definitely a small business. That isn't a put down, that's a simple fact.

  • #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddman75 View Post
    Most gamers are nice, interesting people. Reality is that it takes 100 of those people to counteract meeting one jerk or social miscreant.
    I gotta agree with maddman. We don't have the gamer stereotypes for nothing, but I don't think the majority of the gamers out there fall into them (or even close to them). Still, it's the ones that do that stand out - especially to those not active in the hobby.

  • #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
    26 full-time employees? That's not just small, that's tiny. That's an employment non-blip by any measure. 26 people making something I like (or dislike, or heck, don't even know about) is most definitely a small business. That isn't a put down, that's a simple fact.
    Anybody know how many full-time employees on salary, are working in the D&D division of WotC?
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  • #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyvyan Basterd View Post
    I agree with you. No one is obligated to go say good things about the article. But why do so many people feel the need to go out of their way to bash something every chance they get?
    "It is much easier to be critical than to be correct." -- Benjamin Disraeli

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