companies staying away from rpg gamers

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Raven Crowking

First Post
Saying "Exhibit A" is the same as a multi-paragraph rant which includes telling me and Malcolm, personally, to "go die in a fire"???


That bothered me, too. There were things in his post that I wanted to XP, yet there were more things in his post that I didn't want to condone. I didn't like the "Exhibit A" either, but I did understand where it came from.


RC
 

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fanboy2000

Adventurer
I know WotC has (way) more. I didn't think of GW. Both are good examples of companies with multi-million-dollar brands likely to attract outside interest.

Fantasy Flight probably has more total employees, but many work on board games and non-RPG stuff. That's true of some of our employees as well, so it's an imperfect comparison.

I have no idea how many full-time White Wolf employees still work actively on tabletop RPGS. And I have no idea how many employees they have total. I think possibly "a lot".
Back when I started, it was assumed that the de facto #2 company was White Wolf. Now, it seems like there a number of companies competing for that spot.

And I'm going to note that you guys have no idea how vicious flamewars quilters can have. Jeeze, you support one technique in stiching, and suddenly 4e/non-4e edition flame wars look tame. :eek:
I keep trying to start a vi vs. emacs flame war here, and no one ever takes the bait. ;)

But, the CNN piece certainly read as ad copy designed to fool you into thinking it was news, and I believe that was the case. It is very, very common for corporations to send out complete copy to news agencies in order to shill their product from a name you may trust. When you hear a news spot about the dangers posed by allergies, you might just want to consider whether or not a company producing allergy medication wrote the copy. Just saying.
I got the same vibe from the CNN piece you did, but it also seemed to me that the author had actually gone to an D&D Encounters event to report on it. Rather than a straight press release, it seemed to me that the reporter had been invited by WotC and had a representative there to answer questions.

But of course, our analysis of the news article is part of the problem! I'm not going to stop doing it anymore than you are, but we're both cynical towards marketing. That said, I think it's only taken to far (and thus we get into the problem Malcolm was talking about) when the cynic acts like any attempt at marking is a bad thing. As though perhaps any attempt at making a profit was bad.

Here's the kicker though, those aren't that common. They're just really annoying to encounter. Enough that I can see someone not wanting to participate in an online product that includes occasional contact with such people.
 


Mallus

Legend
I have to say that I don't think gamers are any less civil than others I have met.
In person, no. Online? Let's just say there are gamers I've encountered online that I certainly wouldn't want as the public face of the hobby (and no, I don't mean you :)). But I'm still not convinced to what degree they are...

It is very, very common for corporations to send out complete copy to news agencies in order to shill their product from a name you may trust.
It almost warms my heart to think the corporate owners of the D&D brand care enough about it to bother shilling via CNN. The thing is, I don't believe they care enough.

When you hear a news spot about the dangers posed by allergies, you might just want to consider whether or not a company producing allergy medication wrote the copy.
Sure. And? Fact of life in the consumerist West. At least we're dealing with a superabundance of toilet paper ads and not frequent shortages of actual TP ie it could be worse...

And, specifically, can you example what you thought was uncivil?
Not uncivil so much as off-putting. Who wants to read more edition warring, with rival camps throwing system-minutiae around? Not a way to pique the interest of the uninitiated.
 

Bluenose

Adventurer
Lemme guess. :)

1 - WotC
2 - Games Workshop
3 - White Wolf (?)

Try

1. Games Workshop
2. Everyone else combined

2,285 employees according to their 2009 annual report. That of course includes shop staff, but I'm not certain whether it refers solely to the UK based employees.
 

Vyvyan Basterd

Adventurer
Tell me what "toxic" means and supply me with some examples.

Then we'll both be on the same page.

No. Because you're missing the point. There is a general (mis)conception that all RPGers are CBG types. General Conceptions by definition have no specific examples. Some specific examples, like the comments on CNN, can fuel non-RPGers general (mis)conceptions that we are all the CBG.

I'm not advocating that any one of us is the CBG. We've all come across examples of that behavior. To say you haven't is bunk. To pretend that the world at large doesn't view us that way is sticking your head in the sand.

To clarify, because I think some are still offended by my assertions, I want to change people's misconceptions because I believe doing so can grow our hobby in general. I don't think that requires us to change as individuals, it requires us to change others' perceptions of us. Shows like Big Bang Theory and movies like Role Models have taken small steps to show the mainstream that we are not horrid little trolls to be avoided at all costs, while at the same time showing us that we don't need to hide away from the mainstream.
 

Lolth

First Post
Saying "Exhibit A" is the same as a multi-paragraph rant which includes telling me and Malcolm, personally, to "go die in a fire"???

I see from your profile that you're from Finland. I'm guessing that perhaps we might have a cultural/language disconnect here, because seriously -- as Jules said in "Pulp Fiction" -- "It ain't the same ball park, it's not even the same damn sport."

I have a pretty good command of the language (my output may be lacking at times, but I am capable of understanding idioms, metaphors, and heck, think in English, I no longer translate things back and forth in my mind; I read way better than I write), and I see from the comments posted by others that you're rubbing them the wrong way as well, I am not the only one.

Either the problem is in the way you communicate, or about dozen others are also interpreting you the wrong way. What are the odds here?

I said it was a result of toxic accumulation, and that just cinched it, no matter the tone of the post which lead to it. You know how you can have a porcelain object which is cracked, but which still holds together, except then there's that tiny sharp ting when you put it on top of the metallic kitchen sink and the whole thing goes to pieces? Like that.

Want me to go back and look for other things you've said, in very dismissive tones, and with what I regard as open hostility and true toxicity?

In the article which started this whole thing, you said:

No, the problem is that a group of *consumers* somehow got it into their heads that they’re “artists.”

It’s self-aggrandizing delusional [redacted] like this that lead to the wider media community, even in areas where you’d think RPGers would be valued, walking away as fast as they can.

Gamers aren’t artists. A gamer is a consumer who purchases and uses a category of products, specifically GAMES. That’s all.

That’s no more “cuckoo” than golfers purchasing and using golf gear…. Which certainly doesn’t make golfers “artists.”

Get over yourself.

I would like to note that JDCorley was using the words artist, paint and canvas as a way of illustrating his point of view to the situation:

I have a deep suspicion that the reason all of this is true is because the hobby has set itself up with designers/producers and consumers, when the actual experience of the hobby is more like a small group of artists buying and using paint and canvases.

You, however, pounced on literal implication of it, instead of focusing on what he meant.

These are the tools. These are the tools we use together. We share the experience together. I could try to make the same point, except since I'm a computer nerd, I'd use a comparison to a coding language.

You, however, blundered in with extremely toxic and hostile attitude. Dismissive. But even worse...

You reduce the players and DMs alike to the role of consumer, and I don't think I am misreading your diatribe here: you're "telling us how it is", rather than relying on metaphorical speech, yes?

We consume. You do know that the word "consumer" started with bad connotations, until somehow it became a virtue? It is, after all, derived from the word "consume". And even in its modern-day virtue, it is something which strips you of your uniqueness.

Buy. Buy our stuff. BUY! WHY AREN'T YOU BUYING ALREADY? I don't need sunglasses a la They Live to see the message. I, consumer.

But you know what? If we're consumers, then it is our right to get even louder and complain about inferior services and product we're getting. While I do not subscribe to the thought where a customer is always right without a question (they're not), wouldn't it be even more understandable that a consumer is going to be loud when it looks like someone put a turd into their burger?

If we're consumers, this makes you both producer and marketer. And right now I, this consumer unit, deem that you've failed to market your product to me in a suitable and appropriate manner, even if I find ICONS to be a system which satisfies my need for supers-based gaming.

Skarka, you failed your Marketing roll. And I'm saying this as someone who has managed to buy stuff from Terry bleedin' Austin of Usenet fame.
 

BryonD

Hero
I agree with Malcolm's post, because I've seen the same things: namely that the worst elements of the RPG community (which you and others have termed the CBG element) often actively dissuade others from engaging with the community.
Do you claim that this is a special characteristic of the RPG community? (And to be clear, I'm not asking are other markets immune to individual examples of it. I'm asking, is this a significant and influential consistent element of the RPG collective marketplace and at the same time NOT a concern for most to nearly all other marketplaces?)
 

GMSkarka

Explorer
II don't think I am misreading your diatribe here

You are, or perhaps holding it to a ridiculous double-standard. Either way, you're mistaken.

But fine.

I'm not going to bother to argue with you -- anything I say will be picked at further, in varying degrees of passive- and not-so-passive- aggression, and there's usually not much point, once someone on an Internet forum has reached the time-honored OMGIHAZRIGHTEOUSBOYCOTT stage.
 

Maggan

Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
The longer this thread continues, the more I'm inclined to think that eyebeams were on to something.

Are there gamers who are acting in a way that puts some people off gaming? Well, as someone who has been disillusioned with a game due to "fan" behaviour, I would say yes.

Are there gamers that are irrationally critical of everything a specific publisher has to offer? Again, I have been embroiled in that situation, regarding both D&D, WFRP and a game I co-wrote, Mutant Chronicles.

Are there publishers that are jerks? Sure, but hey, they are gamers too, so there's no reason why they should be exempt of any theory that some gamers are jerks.

/M
 

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