companies staying away from rpg gamers

DEFCON 1 · Jun 22, 2010

The silly part of this though, is that this is in no way isolated to the tabletop RPG arena. Heck, every segment of popular culture has their 'hardcore' fanbase, and in practically every single instance the company trying to build a sustainable business in that arena doesn't want to cater to just that fanbase, because there isn't enough money to be made there. They want to "expand" their business and try to pick up the elusive "casual" person.

If you're creating a new MMO, what do you think you'd get if you went to the hardcore raiding scene and talked with those people about what you were doing? You'd get the same alienating reaction, and all kinds of information that would be important to them, but not to the public at large that you are really trying to court.

All us hardcore pro wrestling fans (aka the 'internet smart marks') bang our heads against the wall every single week when we see absolutely ridiculous storylines and behaviors on WWE Raw or TNA Impact, and we just wish they'd listen to us and make wrestling "good" again. But they for the most part ignore us, because our hardcore definition of "good" wrestling just doesn't lend itself to the wider fanbase the companies are looking for and hoping to make money off of.

And the hardcore movie nerds? Yeah, Battle Royal or Let The Right One In or Oldboy might be hands down better films than the newest Fast & The Furious movie... but it's been proven time and time again that FatF or Sex In The City 2 will be generating the box office.

The best you can hope for is for a producer of content to have an ear towards what the hardcore fanbase wants... but able to temper that with a more mainstream approach. THAT'S how you generate the large bank that companies of product are striving for. Sam Raimi and Jon Favreau didn't worry about every nitpicky thing the hardcore comic fans would have wanted included when they made Spider-Man and Iron Man... but they kept just enough to make the core feel like their property was being honored and respected. And that's really what any company dealing with a property or arena with a devoted fanbase can hope to do.

maddman75 · Jun 22, 2010

On further reflection, I agree with the premise but for totally different reasons. He's talking about 'transitive media', which I take to mean stuff like video games and movies and TV shows. They should not make those things to the standards of RPG fans. They are completely different categories of things. They are entertainment. RPGs are hobbies. You spend time outside the actual activity doing them. The appeal comes from as much from the larger social aspects than the games themselves. No, I would not abandon my tabletop games for computer games even if they were perfect reproductions of the fantasy world - because a large part of what I like is my friends coming to my house, making new friends, seeing old friends at GenCon, and talking about games with all of these friends.

They are completely different, and the tastes of what RPG fans want in RPGs should not have bearing on what goes into movies, video games, and other entertainment.

Dausuul · Jun 22, 2010

ardoughter said:
I do not think it is specific to gamers, there are people that act like jerks and feel excessivly entitled everywhere. Nothing in the post would convince me that gamers are especially worse than the general population.

I agree that the post is too vague to convince anybody of much of anything, but my own experience suggests that there's a particular brand of dickwaddishness peculiar to gaming and related communities (e.g., the fantasy and science fiction fandoms). Other communities have other kinds of obnoxiousness going on.

ardoughter said:
In my experience if gamers have a fault in this area, it is that gamers will tolerate behaviour that would in other places lead to homicide.

Yeah, we do. Which is why that behavior crops up more often in the gaming community IME.

eyebeams · Jun 22, 2010

Heya!

Let me make a few things clear:

1) I can't be specific because of the situation. It's a past client though, and not White Wolf. It's not transmedia either, but some of its insights apply.

2) I'm not talking about all gamers, but a disproportionate number of the ones whose opinions and behaviours are widely accessible.

3) According to our experience it was specifically people with a tabletop RPG background.

4) As I explain in the comments, I see no sign that it has anything to do with resisting marketing. In fact, I personally take great care in presenting what I directly publish because in my experience, gamers are *especially* vulnerable to some sneaky stuff like social marketing. I don't do that -- but when I did for other stuff it sure as hell worked.

I also doubt it's laser keen critical faculties. One thing I discuss down in the comments is a situation where someone says, "I never read this book but it sucks and you should steal it." That is not an example of finely honed critical thinking. It's just toxic jerkdom. Companies don't want to deal with that even with paying customers.

Dausuul · Jun 22, 2010

eyebeams said:
I can't be specific because of the situation. It's a past client though, and not White Wolf. It's not transmedia either, but some of its insights apply.

Granted, you have to respect your client's confidentiality, but perhaps you can give us a general idea of what each behavior would entail in a hypothetical setting? It's very hard to figure out what you're talking about with some of them, or why those things are bad.

ExploderWizard · Jun 22, 2010

eyebeams said:
One thing I discuss down in the comments is a situation where someone says, "I never read this book but it sucks and you should steal it." That is not an example of finely honed critical thinking. It's just toxic jerkdom. Companies don't want to deal with that even with paying customers.

This could be a jerk from any hobby. Why is this extreme example of stupidity supposed to be representative of all tabletop gamers?

Crothian · Jun 22, 2010

eyebeams said:
gamers are *especially* vulnerable to some sneaky stuff like social marketing. I don't do that -- but when I did for other stuff it sure as hell worked.

What else would you call sneaky stuff?

ggroy · Jun 22, 2010

Crothian said:
What else would you call sneaky stuff?

Astroturfing?

Raven Crowking · Jun 22, 2010

What I got was:

After years of learning to avoid being conned by NPCs, role-players have applied the same lessons to avoid being conned by marketting. And those doing the marketting don't like that. Most hobbies don't teach that sort of critical thinking, which makes people who follow those other hobbies far easier to sell stuff to, regardless of whether or not they need it, and whether or not it is actually useful/of good quality.

So, if you would like to be targetted by more marketting, please do not react using critical thinking. Thank you.

RC

Thornir Alekeg · Jun 22, 2010

eyebeams said:
3) According to our experience it was specifically people with a tabletop RPG background.

This is probably the one point I would most like some clarification.

How was the background determined? Self-identification, I assume, right?
How did you define background? Did they play TRPGs a few times when they were kids, regularly over several years, currently play in three games per week?
What were the other backgrounds that did not show this same level of jerkdom? MtG players, WoW addicts, professional poker players, athletes, members of quilting bees?
Was there only one background per person, or could a person have multiple influences/backgrounds?