Mark
CreativeMountainGames.com
(Here's the first half of the CMing Chat Session transcript from Monday Night!)
Mon Oct 21 22:20:37 2002
(#CMG) Creative Mountain Games - Visit the CMG Site at http://www.creativemountaingames.com/
CMG DMing Chat sessions are held every other Monday night!
(Edited somewhat for brevity and clarity)
Participating:
alsih2o
Baastet
chatdemon
CMG_Nichar
deBhaal
FastLearner
Hildulf
Mark_CMG
Piratecat
Umbran
Wolf72
Mark_CMG Welcome, everyone! Does everyone here run D&D games (at least sometimes)?
Wolf72 Been a while, grad school is in the way ... but, yes.
deBhaal On occasion ... I'm working on being a better DM.
Baastet I have once. Does that count? Or am I just here to be the token female? (winks)
deBhaal (laughs) Token female... (winks)
Hildulf Unfortunately, I run games almost exclusively.
(Baastet chuckles)
deBhaal I co-ran one the other day.
alsih2o My group rotates the DM.
Piratecat Yup.
Baastet I do co-run lot though.
deBhaal That was more of a power game thing though.
Wolf72 Ick, I'm jealous already.
deBhaal Fun, nonetheless.
Hildulf Me, too.
(FastLearner joins)
Mark_CMG Howdy, FastLearner. First on the agenda is a run down of what we will be doing tonight.
(CMG_Nichar joins)
Mark_CMG Welcome back, Nichar.
Baastet Hi, Nichar.
deBhaal Hello, Nich.
CMG_Nichar Hi...decided to try and give it a shot. (Not feeling well)
Mark_CMG We'll try to accomplish a few things. Firstly, we'll make a list of troublesome DM topics. We'll look at some specific problems that some of us are dealing with (allowing the group to feed us solutions) then we'll look at fashioning a short adventure.
Piratecat Works for me.
deBhaal OK.
CMG_Nichar Me, too.
Baastet Sounds interesting. (smiles)
FastLearner Great!
deBhaal Fun at least. (smiles)
Wolf72 OK.
Mark_CMG If I could ask alsih2o2o to cut and paste some of the topic ideas we come up with, please?
Wolf72 I got one. (smiles)
Mark_CMG Wolf?
alsih2o Sure, Mark.
Mark_CMG Wolf, please, go right ahead. Thanks, alsih2o2o.
Wolf72 Um, it's kinda whiny, but ... dealing with players who also DM ... and forget they aren't DMing at the time.
Mark_CMG OK. That's a real good one.
deBhaal (chuckles) I've got one of those ...
Piratecat And I'm guilty as charged. (frowns)
Mark_CMG Anyone else? Just throw them out and we'll get a (longer) list (of topics) together.
deBhaal ...but he's new to 3E.
Baastet That is part of the reason I don't like to DM my group, Wolf. (winks)
deBhaal Overdoing XP is one ...
Wolf72 Well, giving ideas (to the DM) is okay, but direct challenges because of style is another thing. (Then to Baas) Agreed, I only play if those guys are in the game now.
Mark_CMG XP, yes. Tough to find the right formula for a group early on, eh?
Piratecat I'm having trouble getting my group into a dungeon crawl, as they're used to political games.
Wolf72 Oops. Sorry, Mark, we'll discuss topics later (after finishing the list).
deBhaal Yeah ... especially an overpowered one ...
Mark_CMG No problem, Wolf. PC, Yup. Switching gears in a campaign from one style of gaming to another.
(deBhaal prefers dungeon crawls, but that's just a personal preference.
alsih2o So, changing gears?
Mark_CMG Perfect, alsih2o2o.
Hildulf I had a player that was DMing the game before I started DMing 3e... He is a DM, and a Rules Lawyer. His challenges ended with, "Get in, sit down, hang on, and shut up". (smiles)
Wolf72 Would "Leveling fast" ... part of overdoing XP?
Mark_CMG I hear ya, Hildulf. (to FastLearner) Any potential topics?
(Umbran joins)
Wolf72 Rules lawyer v. rules aide?
Baastet Does anyone else have trouble running a "3-D combat" like involving Air or water or inside gelatinous cubes battles?
deBhaal Items ... and right levels to give what powers at ...
(Wolf72 like's deBhaal's topic)
deBhaal (smiles)
FastLearner A sub-issue with players who are DMs is those players insisting their house rules should apply since they make the most sense.
deBhaal I'm a beginning DM, so I haven't figured this stuff out yet.
Mark_CMG House rules promoted by players? Yup, good topic.
Baastet (to deBhaal) So am I (winks). I have 3 whole game sessions under my belt.
deBhaal Haven't had that problem yet, FastLearner ... in my group anyway. (laughs) (then to Baastet) That's more than me.
Mark_CMG Items, to give? Yupper.
deBhaal Also, other powers. Gaining them and such.
Umbran How to choose what Prestige classes to use in a campaign.
alsih2o More specifically, deBhaal?
Mark_CMG Has everyone thrown an idea out there? (Everyone who has one in mind?)
Wolf72 High power and low power gaming, ideas for each?
FastLearner Matching challenges to a party's actual capabilities instead of a CR?
deBhaal A friend of mine has a mage at level 38 that can cast MM at will.
Mark_CMG Ah yes, PrCs, which to include?
deBhaal Gaining spell-like abilities, I guess is what I mean.
Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Yup. Balancing for the players, and not so much the characters and their levels, right?
FastLearner Right.
Baastet Scaling adventures gives me problems.....
Mark_CMG I understand, deBhaal.
deBhaal Yeah.
Wolf72 Adding to Baastet's idea: scaling old 1E/2E adventures ...
Mark_CMG Scaling, tough to do, especially when you DM infrequently.
Baastet Yes, Mark. (chuckles) Especially when you are not quite sure about CR's anyway.
deBhaal DMing people who don't know 3E rules ...but know 2E.
Piratecat I'm good at scaling.
Mark_CMG Baas, Yup. (laughs) (Then to deBhaal) That's a tough one, too.
deBhaal Sometimes.
(Wolf72 would add something to deBhaal's comment, but it's just me whining.) (smiles)
Mark_CMG OK. Let's use the list that we have as a start, eh?
deBhaal At least he's a fast learner (the 2E player) .. and we have a complete newbie in the group, too.
Mark_CMG I think we have about a dozen topics. Allow me give alsih2o2o a second to organize them, then let's tackle the first one. "Players who also DM (and direct challenges to the DM)." Wolf, this was your topic. Give us an example of the problem, please.
deBhaal (chuckles)
Wolf72 Probably back to deBhaal's ...
deBhaal Wolf?
Wolf72 They don't want to listen, just do it they way they would have ... and instead of questioning it's challenging.
Mark_CMG Well, we mentioned "rules lawyer-ing vs. just giving some aid," right?
Wolf72 Si, senor.
Mark_CMG Is there a specific time that this happened where it really messed up a night's session?
Wolf72 Hoo boy ...
Piratecat The best thing you can do when someone is challenging your authority as DM is to take them aside privately; challenging them in front of the other players just sets up a bad scene.
Wolf72 First 3e DMing experience ...
Mark_CMG One rule that just couldn't be agreed upon?
Piratecat I've found that asking them nicely to let you run the game usually works wonders.
FastLearner In our group of 6, five of us take turns DMing. When a couple of the DMs were new we certainly had a problem with them succumbing to players' rules interpretations, but this tends to happen with all new DMs.
Wolf72 No, I was right ... had almost to force them to look it up rather than rely on memory.
Baastet Pkitty, (chuckles), unless you're married to them ... (smiles)
Mark_CMG True, PC, that can work among good friends (and sometimes even at conventions, eh?).
Piratecat Nah, Baastet, my wife slaps me down all the time. (smiles)
FastLearner I've not played much at cons... I'd guess it's a bigger problem there?
Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) True, also (regarding the first thing you said about newer DMs).
Wolf72 I would ask, "We'll look it up?" ... response: "NO, I KNOW I'm right!"
Mark_CMG I think at conventions a DM has a little more pull, if he knows the rules at least fairly well.
Umbran (to Wolf72) Which backfires if you're not correct...
Piratecat We have a loosely enforced house rule: if you plan to cast a spell or use an obscure rule, have the book open when it's your turn. Saves lots of time.
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) Ever have many problems with players questioning your calls (at conventions)?
Wolf72 True, but I don't mind giving in if the rules say otherwise ... my players would complain more (if I didn't give in).
Piratecat Very seldom, Mark. I had a rules lawyer at GenCon in one game....
Mark_CMG Do tell... (smiles)
Piratecat I had to thank him and remind him that I do know the rules. He backed right down. For some folks, it's a dominance battle.
Wolf72 Yup. (Regarding
"Attacking over creature of the same size" (a player) refused to believe that someone 5'5" provided cover in front of someone over 6'5". I tried to explain, in 3E Medium-sized is Medium-sized (the situation had to do with reach weapon).
Piratecat I have only had to really deal with this maybe three times in 300+ convention games. Lucky.
alsih2o Sounds lucky, indeed.
Mark_CMG I had a similar problem just last GenCon.
Wolf72 (In response, I) would get back: "Well in *my* game"...
Mark_CMG An entire group signed up for one of my sessions (as a team) and the DM of their home group gave me a bit of trouble over whether or not an intelligent NPC should be able to figure out that while he was invisible, there was someone tying off the end of a rope. (I had to put my foot down.) I had been running the game so that everyone could still stay at the table even if they weren't together, provided that they kept player and character knowledge separate. But when this one fellow decided to argue every rule, even though I had been giving the group that leeway, I asked him to come to another table. I kept them separate for about fifteen minutes, and it seemed to do the trick.
Piratecat Part of it is actually knowing the rules. If I'm not sure, I have someone look it up for me. Wolf, house rules don't travel. Period. (smiles)
Wolf72 PC, I do that but I kept getting, "I know the rule." Gotta 'member that one. (smiles)
Piratecat You know what might work?...
Wolf72 I guess my "prove it" statement was a bit harsh though
Piratecat Say, "Yes, you do, but as DM I need to see it myself in order to remember it." Place the onus on you, and they'll likely respond.
Mark_CMG That's a good way to do it.
Wolf72 I think after the 3rd or 4th challenge though, I begin to fail my diplomacy checks. (frowns)
Piratecat KidCthulhu tells me that when I get rules lawyer-y. It settles me back down. (grins)
deBhaal I don't have any rules lawyer-ing but that maybe because I'm the most fluent with the 3E rules in my games ..
Wolf72 It just seemed like for most of my players it was a challenge to try to beat the DM (me) rather than play the game
Piratecat The truth is, the DM is in charge, and if folks want to play they should be polite and follow house rules. If a house rule is "show me the rule in the rulebook", they will hopefully get used to it.
(Wolf72 thinks of another problem, "when players don't travel with the DM and don't let the DM know if they're going to show up")
Piratecat And remember! Reward good behavior. Subtly discourage bad behavior. Thank people who do it properly.
FastLearner I'm fortunate to have players (who are DMs) who don't see it as player vs. DM right now. In previous years I've worked to point out that the challenge is *inside* the game world, not *outside*.
Baastet (to Piratecat) What do you do to discourage bad behavior?
Wolf72 (to Piratecat) I don't mean to be the nay sayer but it reminds of my students. ("How come they get all the *good stuff*?", "Why are you always yelling at me?"...)
Mark_CMG What about the new player, new to your game but not to the rules, that wants to introduce House Rules from other games to your table?
Piratecat Tone of voice, mostly. Subtle stuff. (to Mark) I'd deal with that away from the table.
FastLearner Yup, tone of voice, body language, and attention paying seem to work best.
Piratecat That discussion happens over lunch, not during the game.
Mark_CMG I see, "Ask then to hold off until between sessions."
Wolf72 Good one. (Wolf72 is liking this session.)
Mark_CMG But even if it is away from the table, how do you handle requests that may seem odd or unreasonable to you?
Piratecat I'd say, "No," but I'd try to keep an open mind.
Umbran Depends. Is it a request, or a demand?
alsih2o It seems that recalling what belongs in-session and who is the DM. are both important.
Mark_CMG Usually a request. (smiles)
Piratecat 3E needs so few house rules, it'd have to be something fairly spectacular.
CMG_Nichar Oh?
Umbran Requests can be dealt with via reason - inform the player of why you'd prefer not to use the rule. Demands are a bit more sticky.
deBhaal What about homemade PrCs and such?
Mark_CMG I think it is a good idea to let them know just why it would maybe upset the balance of your particular game. (to UMB) Yup. (smiles) (the to deBhaal) Has that come up for you?
deBhaal ...or even redo's of present PrCs?
FastLearner One tricky thing about DMing in general is that lots and lots of "rules" aren't found in any books, even with 3e. Just as in Monopoly it doesn't say that you can't postpone your turn for 3 days but we all know that there's an implicit rule that you must take your turn in a reasonable time. So, too, are there a bunch of rules in RPGing that you sometimes have to actually *teach* with certain players.
Wolf72 I had a player that asked my advice ... and he came up with a darn good PrC, I was just helping edit
Mark_CMG Can you give us an example?
deBhaal Not quite, but might soon.
Piratecat (to deBhaal) I'd have to dissect it with a critical eye, and would only allow it with the understanding that we may tweak it if problems arise.
Baastet (to deBhaal) Well you always have the final say in homemade PrC's .. but I would make sure it is balanced.. Which is my chant with all things .. (winks) "Is it balanced .. Is it fair...? "
deBhaal Well, I altered the Paladin class a bit for a friend, because that was the closest to his character concept, but he wasn't the Lawful Good type guy.
Piratecat I allow occasional redo of PCs after new source books come out.
FastLearner Including the most important implicit rule: The DM is trying to make the game fun for everyone, so you need to play along. This applies to PrCs and everything else, I believe.
Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) True.
deBhaal Yes.
Mark_CMG (to deBhall) How did you alter it?
Wolf72 Me? ... I did that for someone who was thinking of a duelist type ... got far, then the dragon mag came out.
alsih2o It can also help to point out that "this" campaign may not be the best to playtest a new concept.
deBhaal Dropped some of the special abilities, removed Heavy armor proficiency, and altered the spell list.
Mark_CMG (to alsih2o2o) Yup, that can be a reasonable way to handle it.
deBhaal Gave him a +(bonus) against undead.
Wolf72 (laughs) ...or 'remember when I said low power, and low magic?' I kinda want to stay with it, but let's start work on another campaign with those ideas?
Mark_CMG So you wanted to help him gear the PC as an Undead hunter of sorts?
deBhaal Allowed him to be Neutral Good. (to Mark_CMG) Yes.
FastLearner Indeed, and while RPGing is certainly shared storytelling, the DM must still decide the "reality" of this campaign. If a particular PrC simply doesn't exist in your world, the player simply can't get the training or follow the path.
Baastet (to deBhaal) One of the best things with one of my old GM's was that he worked with me to advance my character, allowing me to multiclass my monk into a Paladin. It took a lot of work through roleplaying but I could see a tangible reward for all the great roleplaying we had done over the 8 months and it stuck with me.
FastLearner (to Baas) Good point.
deBhaal Yeah. (smiles)
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Excellent. (to deBhaal) Did the idea of an Undead hunter fit your game, or did you have to adjust the game to fit what the player wanted to play?
deBhaal Just the class.
Mark_CMG How's that? (Can you elaborate?)
deBhaal I'm kinda doing published adventures, and adding in, or taking away what I don't like.
Mark_CMG I see.
deBhaal I meant the class fit in the game, I didn't need to alter the game.
Mark_CMG So the game you run is fairly flexible for that sort of thing?
deBhaal Yep. I don't like "rigid" much.
Mark_CMG That's a good thing to avoid. Let's move on to a related topic.
(deBhaal chuckles)
Wolf72 Okay. (smiles)
Mark_CMG The XP awards - How do you decide if they need adjusting for your personal concept of the game?
Piratecat (chuckles) My group levels once every 10-12 sessions.
Wolf72 Wow, PC .. tell more?
deBhaal Hmmm, I know I give too much XP.
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) Which is kinda slow by some standards, eh?
(chatdemon joins)
Mark_CMG Howdy Rich (chatdemon).
deBhaal Or did.
Baastet Hi, chatdemon.
chatdemon Yo.
Piratecat I decided early on that I wanted a long-term campaign - 11 years, now. We found it made for very rich PCs.
Mark_CMG (to Rich) CMG_Nichar will PM (private message) you with where in the discussion we are currently. (smiles)
Piratecat Rich as in character and personality, not cash. (smiles)
Mark_CMG Nice.
Piratecat In 3E, with the faster advancement, we saw no reason to change things.
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) I see. So with a focus on character depth, a slower progression serves you well?
Piratecat Very much so. In Sagiro's campaign as well.
Umbran Okay, so PC, how frequently do you have combats?
Wolf72 Do you cut down on the amount of XP awards? (the .5 example?)
Mark_CMG How does it feel from the other side of the table? Ever want it to move a bit faster?
Piratecat But we have stable players. In college, with people coming and leaving, it wouldn't work as well.
Mark_CMG Umbran, had a particularly good question there. "How frequently do you have combats?"
Wolf72 Ah ... my example from above was a college experience ... (same with other problem)
deBhaal I give way too much compared to PC. (chuckles) Well, would be (too much) in his game.
chatdemon I cut XP awards by 10 myself
Piratecat Wolf, it's confession time. I usually just toss encounters at the group, then figure out standard XP... and adjust it so that people level when they "should." Heretical!
Wolf72 I like that!
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) (chuckles)
Wolf72 ... but now we have to stone you, sorry! (winks)
Piratecat Cutting it by 10 would have about the same effect, although we have a combat-light game usually.
Umbran Not Heretical, just not for all groups.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) To 10% of normal?
alsih2o Does everyone keep the same XP reward rate throughout the campaign or do you find some levels feel better played slower?
chatdemon Yeah, 10% of suggested.
Mark_CMG I see.
deBhaal Hmmm...
Mark_CMG (to alsih2o) Good question.
Wolf72 I don't mind taking a few sessions to level. It lets me get a feel for my character's new abilities!
FastLearner I try to have at least one combat, one puzzle/strategy issue, and one solid roleplaying session every game, so XP goes pretty fast but not nearly as fast as if I'd focused on combat
Piratecat (to Umbran) We have maybe one big fight every other game.
Umbran I've occasionally seen folks want to take levels 1-3 slower than the rest, because as is they whip by pretty darned fast.
Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) That's a good balance.
FastLearner On the player side, I like about 5-7 or so sessions per level.
deBhaal I like fast leveling.
Mark_CMG (to Umbran) Does that help you to build the characters with more detail?
Piratecat If I was starting a new game with new players, I'd probably have them level every 5 sessions or so.
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) So you would change the old formula you use? Why the speedier game?
Wolf72 I'd like that ... I feel cheated if I don't have a chance to ever experiment with my skills or new feat.
Umbran The players find it often does. If you're treating a 1st level character as "a babe in the woods", slowing down early advancement helps them deal with certain things... like the fact they've never "killed" anything before...
Piratecat For brand new players, Mark, a speedier leveling process isn't a bad thing.
alsih2o I agree.
Mark_CMG There is a risk of over-indulging with characters, if you move too slow, and thereby becoming so attached that it makes character death a big loss, or the possibility of boredom creeping over some players.
deBhaal I'll probably slow down XP a bit.
alsih2o People new to the game like the feeling of advancement.
Piratecat When people start to chafe about XP, it's usually time to award it. (smiles)
deBhaal (chuckles)
Mark_CMG (smiles)
chatdemon The trick is finding other rewards besides XP.
Mark_CMG Anything more to say on this topic at this point?
deBhaal Not really.
Piratecat I don't announce XP awards until someone is leveling, or a story arc finishes.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) Very good point.
Piratecat Yes, chatdemon is correct.
Baastet Well, as a player, I like to see some reward if there has been lotsa good combat/roleplaying/ideas etc.
Mark_CMG Let's use that to springboard into the other items and rewards for PCs and how best to dole them out?
CMG_Nichar I should be finally getting back to the gaming table as a player this Wednesday.. With Sir-Gish-Makai as my DM.... I have no idea how he handles level advancements.
Baastet As you said chat rewards other than XP are always nice.
deBhaal ...such as weapons, scrolls, money, friends...
chatdemon In my opinion, cutting down XP and cutting down cash flow should go hand in hand.
Mark_CMG deBhaal brought up "items for the right level"
deBhaal Enemies (ongoing NPCs) can be a good thing ... for DMs anyway.
Piratecat I like in-game awards. Notoriety, fame, privileges, etc.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) True. Let's talk a bit about lower levels perks.
chatdemon ...then money can be used as a reward, and the characters actually have to work for the cool new items they want which can give them a sense of accomplishment.
alsih2o Yes, a stable game world where the effects of the PCs actions can be seen.
Piratecat Regarding "items for the right level" - the wealth guidelines can act as a check and balance.
Wolf72 (to Piratecat) Good quotable.
Baastet And not to mention romances or general things for character developement, like being able to freely multi between 2 normally restriced classes.....
FastLearner I find one of the best and least-unbalancing non-xp awards is simply giving a player a chance to shine.
Wolf72 ... what's right for "x"-level?
Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) That's very important.
FastLearner Like creating an encouter that let's a particular player's or character's skills stand out.
Wolf72 (to FastLearner) Yup-Yup!
alsih2o FastLearner is right. Make them feel like the characters are important and you have them hooked.
Mark_CMG And to use a roleplaying encounter, such as one that Baastet suggests, is a good way to do that.
Wolf72 ...or that their skills do matter.
chatdemon I'm not sure what you mean by lower level perks.
deBhaal Reasons for people to like low levels or enjoy low levels a bit more.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) Things that appeal to the lower level characters that are important to introduce to the game at those levels. Such as dealing with some of the background ideas of the players
Wolf72 Ooh, muy bien ... especially with experienced players who think that 1st lvl is just a beginner level with nothing interesting.
deBhaal Enemies!
Mark_CMG Including some familial encounters.
chatdemon Fame or infamy is a good perk, in my opinion.
Hildulf Dang.... I'm back....
Piratecat One thing to remember: a character ability that never gets used (paladin's mount, anybody?) is not actually a benefit. When my player's cleric got regenerate, I spent sessions trying to chop off a limb, just so he could use it.
deBhaal Yeah, my friend's character ... his family was killed by undead.
Mark_CMG Perhaps explaining the reasoning as to why someone would even adventure in the first place.
chatdemon If the NPCs start to actually recognize the characters' deeds.
Wolf72 (laughs) Piratecat!
deBhaal (laughs)
Piratecat Thus, use ranger's species enemies, and undead, and set up circumstances that play to the PCs' strengths.
Baastet I find that some of my "non combat" magic items were the most appreciated by my low level players. They had things like a insect repellent cube, and an iron that heated and dried items when rubbed over it. They were very small, totally non-combat, but they gave the PCs something useful even at a very low level.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) Do you use a lot of player's background to set up early sessions?
alsih2o Low levels are your chance to make the world real.
Piratecat Well said.
Wolf72 Agreed ... and it can seem like a curse ... "Man! Everywhere I go it's undead!" (ala Buffy)
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Yupperoo!
chatdemon Not really, I dont like the "custom made for you adventure" types.
Piratecat Neat idea, Baastet.
Mark_CMG (to alsih2o) Very true.
chatdemon I prefer to see PCs as ordinary Joes who stumble upon an adventure.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) How do you introduce them into the game?
(deBhaal has an agent type person that sent the characters on their first adventure.)
Wolf72 (to chatdemon) ... at least an opportunity here and there?
Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) That's always good.
deBhaal Yeah.
Mark_CMG Any other ideas on that?
chatdemon I'll use the backgrounds to get the party together, then present the adventure to them.
Wolf72 Introduce into game? Eek! (Confession - very weak point for me.)
Mark_CMG OK, just to bring them together, but allow them to find adventure as a group, eh?
Wolf72 Yup.
chatdemon I make each player come up with 3 distinct goals, and try and tie the adventure to what the players want, not where their PC came from.
deBhaal (to Mark_CMG) Something like that.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) I see. That is an excellent way to do it. Who else uses character goals as a springboard?
Baastet We use backgrounds as sub-plots and tie-ins to major plots. It gives the players something "personal" to deal with.
deBhaal An adventure I'm in with another group online started as a mercenary group...
Wolf72 Goals vs background ... I like that.
deBhaal ...more like a babysitting job though.
chatdemon So if the bard's goals include wanting to find the songs of some famous bard, I'll toss a hint about that bard into the adventure hook. For example...
FastLearner I use goals, indeed. The only problem I have with them is trying to remember to include them often enough. (smiles)
deBhaal (chuckles)
Wolf72 Index cards work well.
Mark_CMG Very important to make notes.
Piratecat I build them into big plot points.
(Baastet is woefully un-organized)
Wolf72 Although some players do make dming feel more like a chore than fun. (smiles) Wolf72 is guilty, too. Sorry Paul! (-Wolf72's big brother-)
deBhaal (to Baastet) Me, too. I scratch out basics of the ememes right before a fight. (frowns)
Mark_CMG While chatdemon is typing his example, let's throw out some organizational ideas too help Baastet.
chatdemon Once a goal is completed, I ask them to create a new one, so there are always 3 goals per PC, and I ask them to be realistic.
Mark_CMG Index cards was mentioned...
Wolf72 5x8, even.
Piratecat Interesting idea, chatdemon.
Baastet I have my own DM-sprial notebook.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) So goals accomplished always lead to bigger goals?
Wolf72 Punch holes ... get some rings and viola!
chatdemon Realistic goals I mean, ruling the world isn't a realistic goal for a level 1 fighter, owning a masterwork sword is.
deBhaal (laughs)
Hildulf DM spiral notebook is always a good plan...
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) True.
deBhaal (to chatdemon) Sure it is ... just a really long term goal and three others to be used now.
chatdemon Yeah, the goals get bigger and more grandiose as they level up.
Baastet (to Mark_CMG) I think part of it is needing a bigger GM-area. (winks) I feel squished behind the gm screen.
alsih2o I actually keep index cards on a keychain with notes on all the PCs, and most of the NPCs.
deBhaal I'd end up losing it.
alsih2o (smiles)
Mark_CMG Does anyone like to DM without a DM screen?
Piratecat Me.
chatdemon I never use a screen.
alsih2o Me, too.
chatdemon Never have...
CMG_Nichar Me... when I used to DM.
Piratecat I often do anyways, but I don't especially like it.
deBhaal i just like the nice art work on it.
Hildulf I DM without a DM screen all the time.
chatdemon If I fudge a roll, they'll know I fudged a roll. (smiles)
Wolf72 Yes ... some of my players won't stare, others would constantly try to second guess or get an up by looking at my notes.
Mark_CMG How many actually use the charts on the DM screens in game?
chatdemon ...and I'll explain why...
FastLearner I don't like the separation, but I do like the ability to keep things private.
Wolf72 (raises hand) I use mine as a dice shield mostly.
Baastet (chuckles) My players would read my notes if I didn't use one.
Hildulf Correction... I roll dice ON the DM screen (I lay it flat). Because I do use the charts...
Mark_CMG Ah... I see... (smiles and winks)
deBhaal I use 'em, when I need them.
Wolf72 So. Umm... It's got charts and stuff too? (winks)
chatdemon A lot of times, we dont even sit around the dinner table, we just pull up a seat on a couch or on the floor in the living room, so the screen becomes a moot point.
Mark_CMG (to Hildulf) Best of both worlds, eh?
chatdemon I obviously don't use minis most of the time.
Piratecat I don't use the charts; I use it as a notes screen. I DM from the middle of the table, not the end, so screening the notes becomes important.
FastLearner I'm working on my own LARGE TYPE tables for use with that slip-in DM screen I bought because the little tables with poor light (inside the screened area) make it too difficult to use them.
deBhaal I need minis.
Hildulf Yup... I like rolls in the open.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) More comfortable setting that way?
Baastet Ahh, to use minis or not to use minis..... How many do?
chatdemon Our sessions can run 8 to 10 houirs on a good weekend, sitting at the table gets uncomfortable.
Wolf72 I've had players ask me not to roll in the open, I somehow roll better (for the NPCs) in the open.
Mark_CMG So most use some sort of "hidden area" for their notes, at least? ...and their dice?
Hildulf I would use minis if I had them....
FastLearner We all use minis since 3E. I love the combination of role playing and tactical boardgaming.
Hildulf But nobody makes a Winged Minotaur mini...
Wolf72 "How long should your session be?" ... new question?*
deBhaal I would, too .. i just use paper. My sessions are till we get bored, and then we do somethign else.
FastLearner Yup, mostly to shield my notes and rolls.
Mark_CMG OK, let's get back to one of PCs suggested problem areas - "shifting gears" as from a political game to a dungeon crawl.
chatdemon (to deBhaal) That's how we do it usually, we go until everyone is bored or asleep.
Baastet (to Hildulf) (chuckles) Winged minotaur is easy enough to convert. Yes we use minis ... mmmmmm minis.
Piratecat Regarding - "shifting gears" --
Hildulf Session lasts until the first person starts drooling and snoring on their character sheet.
Baastet Hmm... Well, since I have rarely been in a politcal game (to my great constrenation and frustration), I can't say... (frowns)
Piratecat Last game, my PCs were in a "dungeon" (a treasure vault) for the first time in ages. They're all about 16th level. No one thought to search.
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Even from town to dungeon and such?
Piratecat They just kept looking at me, waiting for interaction. It was disquieting.
alsih2o (laughs)
deBhaal (laughs)
Wolf72 (laughs)
Piratecat I have to think I did something wrong on the transition.
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) ...and how did you prompt them?
Wolf72 I need to work on goals of dungeon delving ...
Baastet Well, I had a hard time shifting my PCs from a city to sewers beneath (chuckles) but eventually I used a sub-plot to tantalize them into expolring it.
(Wolf72 thanks chatdemon) (smiles)
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Tell us more about that, please?
Piratecat Well, I dropped a half dozen obvious hints that everyone ignored, so they left the room that had stuff they needed and continued on. (smiles)
deBhaal I was DMing my brother once, and he wanted to walk by the chasm that he was supposed to go down... (laughs)
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) So they wound up missing some treasure?
chatdemon (to deBhaal) So have him fall. (smiles)
Mark_CMG (laughs)
Hildulf Ah ha! "To railroad, or not to railroad... THAT is the question."
Piratecat Later, I mentioned some of the typical things they might have done - and people said, "Oh, yeah! Whoops."
deBhaal (to chatdemon) No, I just told him he saw a greater Blue dragon Flying towards him ... he was level 4
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) So a lesson learned. (smiles)
alsih2o I think this has quickly evolved into a "player guidance without railroading" sub-discussion. (smiles)
Wolf72 Railroad! ... I mean um, because I said so .. wait no ...
Piratecat Not treasure, essential clues on how to get further into the vault. Now they'll have to figure it out the hard way.
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) So this is ongoing?
chatdemon (to Piratecat) Though thats probably a bit annoying for the DM, it's actually somewhat realistic behavoir from the party, they're out of practice.
Piratecat Yes. They're half-way in.
Wolf72 Do they get frustrated PC? Or do they accept that they may have missed clues?
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) True.
Piratecat Probably true, Rich.
Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Well, I had them already involved in a plot with a missing merchant, since they had to go through the sewers to find him to get the infomation to continue along the "main" storyline. I decided to use the missing merchant as a springboard and made a full blown aub-plot of people missing throughout the city (they learned this as they were exploring the city.)
Piratecat They'll accept it. What bugs me is that at least one player seemed frustrated in game. I don't like that.
Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Eventually they found out it was a secret socitey that was doing experiements on people and turning them into new types of undead....
Piratecat I wish I had found a way to get him drawn in more effectively; maybe a "pep talk" from a knowledgeable no problem?
chatdemon What I try to keep everyone's mind on is the fact they are adventurers, though they may spend some time in throne room politics or on the battlefield with the army, they are always looking for the trap doors, or the ambush.
Hildulf Political Ambush....
Wolf72 ... I'd like it if they would accept that setbacks can be fun, too.
deBhaal Innuendo...
Mark_CMG Yes, chatdemon. (to Piratecat) Were you describing things in a different way, to remind them that they were in a different environment?
Piratecat A fine thing. I worry they may be turning into one trick ponies. The paladin's idea of searching was to constantly detect evil, and that's it.
FastLearner Ooh, indeed, Wolf. Setbacks just make victories that much sweeter, but it's really hard to see from a player perspective.
deBhaal The rogue wasn't searching?
Piratecat Describing things in a different way, how??
Piratecat No rogue.
deBhaal Oh...
chatdemon I've seen that, usually from the rogues though 'I check for traps, I pick the lock, I open the door, next'
Wolf72 Agreed, but getting the snot kicked out of my PC can be fun, too.
FastLearner Amen!
Baastet The trial and tribulations of a PC can be very rewarding when they finally succeed.
deBhaal Hmmm...(deBhaal is hungry...)
(CMG_Nichar Quit)
chatdemon That goes back to the low level perks thing, have an NPC beat the crap out of the party a few times, and they feel really good when they finally beat him.
Baastet Especially if it is involving them specifically like from soMe background thing.
Mark_CMG In such a way as to remind them that they were not in a court room/town/typical environment for their usual behavior patterns?
Piratecat Probably true, Baastet. I just worry that this mini-adventure will feel more like a chore than fun if I don't change something. (to Mark_CMG) Example?
Baastet (to Piratecat) That is always a problem...
Hildulf What's the most difficult formula for you (as a DM) to remember, which is NOT on the DM screen?
Piratecat The lack of a rogue is probably the key to the problem, now that I think of it.
Mark_CMG Well, depends on the setting, but for instance, making sure to mention how alone they are in the dungeon, how things echo because of its size and emptiness.
Hildulf For ME, it is the Cleric "Turn Undead" formula...
alsih2o I am sure a party of appropriate level looks at nearly everything differently, searching thru drawers for 10 gp is boring when you have a +3 frostbrand as a backup sword.
Piratecat Yup. Got that. (smiles)
Wolf72 I tried to write a short story after each significant session ... to lighten it up and let the PCs see what I was thinking.
chatdemon What about introducing a 'rival' party that is also exploring the dungeon, so they can interact with those NPCs, and there is a sense of urgency and competition?
Baastet (to Hildulf) Grappleing & Tripping .. always causes alot of debate.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) Good idea.
Hildulf Grappling and tripping... another difficult one...
Piratecat That's the other weird thing, alsih2o. They see a room full of gold, and say, "Eh. We don't need gold." (grins)
deBhaal Well, most parts of combat I have no problem with.
alsih2o NPCs also allow you to question the characters and get their perspective. (to Piratecat) Yes, the jaded party syndrome. (smiles)
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) That's a whole different problem... (winks)
Wolf72 (to Piratecat) Oh, you should meet one of my friends/dm ... everything COSTS ... (smiles)
alsih2o (to Mark_CMG) I disagree.
Piratecat A fine idea, Rich, but not applicable here - I think. I'll think on it. (to Mark_CMG) They're in the underdark. No stores!
Mark_CMG (grins)
alsih2o (to Mark_CMG) I think part of the reason the party may have not stopped to search is that after a while nothing worth having is small enough to hide. (smiles)
Piratecat Anyways, enough of my dilemma. You folks gave me some good ideas. Thank you.
Mark_CMG How do they deal with the mundane tasks of living down there?
FastLearner Diamonds and rings are pretty small... (smiles)
Baastet (to Piratecat) How often do things of thiers get destroyed?
Mark_CMG Let me take a moment to address this a little further, if I may?
alsih2o (to FastLearner) That is why it is a MISconception. (smiles)
Piratecat (to Mark_CMG) A Mordenkainen's MAgnificent Mansion provides all the food. (then to Baastet) Last game a dragon tried to eat all their weapons. Improved disarm -> swallow.
Mark_CMG Beyond just dealing with food and shelter, there are any number of things that are far easier to handle while in a civilized area than in a hostile environment.
Baastet Sleep... Well, the safety of sleeping. (chuckles)
Mark_CMG The shelter works while they are resting, but just moving through such a place has a tendancy to make people dirty. And, not to be indiscreet, there are the simple things like stopping to sit for a moment, and relieving oneself, that while it isn't necessary to go into detail, can be mentioned just to drive home how uncomfortable the environment is.
Piratecat True. Interesting color text.
chatdemon Not that a medieval castle is much more comfortable.
Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Not to mention fresh foods ... dried rations get old after eating them for 3 times a day for a week.
Mark_CMG Even wiping sweat from the forehead should leave a trail of dirt over their face.
alsih2o A good reminder of the comparable discomfort of adventuring goes a long way.
Piratecat They'll run out of clean cantrips.... (chuckles).
Mark_CMG Small pebbles in their shoes, broken straps on their packs...
deBhaal (chuckles)
Baastet Wear and tear on clothing and equipment...
Piratecat Jermalaine!
Mark_CMG Things that wouldn't be a big problem in civilization.
Wolf72 101 mundane nuisances for adventures. (smiles)
(chatdemon left)
Baastet (laughs) Pkitty, my players hate Jermalaine, pixies and mephits.
Piratecat I can imagine.
Mark_CMG Little noises down side hallways that cause them to waste a light spell, etc.
Piratecat Mark, we can move on if you want - I now have some good ideas!
Mark_CMG OK.
Piratecat Thank you again.
Mark_CMG I think the last topic we have is 3 dimensional combat?
alsih2o pretty much
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Was that your topic?
Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Yah. It all stems from a 25' pit trap and a gelatinous cube.
Mark_CMG How to deal with flying (or swimming) encounters, etc.
Piratecat 3d combat: use the clear plastic boxes that come with your dice to place flying figures on.
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Ah, just a land enounter with three dimensions. I see.
Wolf72 Hey, swim and fly ... according to sage/301 ... fly works underwater.
deBhaal I dont have clear plastic things ...
Mark_CMG It's a good idea to have a tape measure, for one. (smiles)
Wolf72 Or decent sized d6's.
deBhaal (to Wolf72) Err ... how does it (fly spell) work underwater?
Mark_CMG And using anything handy, to give you some levels, is good.
Wolf72 (yahtzee)
Mark_CMG I'll bet most of you have a bookshelf full of paperbacks in the house, eh?
Wolf72 (to deBhaal) ... just lets use your flying speed ...
FastLearner Yeah, too many discussions about a-squared plus b-squared = c-squared without the tape measure.
Baastet But what if, like in a gelatinous cube, they are engulfed?
Mark_CMG I used to use poker chips to denote who was five feet, ten feet high, etc.
Baastet swore if she had another gelatinouscube/pit trap she is making a jello jiggler for stuffing minis in....)
FastLearner Good idea, Mark!
deBhaal I have some of those ...
alsih2o I DO like the poker chip deal!
Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Good idea!
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) That might be the best way to deal with it. (laughs)
Mark_CMG Barring the poker chips, tearing up a piece of paper and writing the height on the edges can be useful (or colored paper if it is available).
deBhaal Hmmm, kind of an off-tangent, what kind of music do you listen to while playing?
Mark_CMG Some people just use their larger six siders.
Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) No tangents, please. (smiles)
Baastet Well, we use a megamat so we write the distances along side the characters for aerial combat.
alsih2o We have often used a piece of graph paper on the wall to denote height in combat. So, we are seeing combat from above and the side.
Mark_CMG I like to also "split the mat"
Baastet (to alsih2o) Good idea.
Wolf72 Anyone have the old game "Chopper Strike"? ... it had two levels, one for jeeps, the others for huey's (helicopters).
FastLearner (to alsih2o) Another great idea!
Mark_CMG Putting some books under half of the mat if the distance in height in far enough works well.
(Hildulf left)
Wolf72 Of course ... someone is bound to bump it and send everything 'flying' for real.
deBhaal (laughs)
Mark_CMG (laughs)
alsih2o So, mark, time left to create an encounter or adventure?
Mark_CMG Absolutely! But one more quick topic... "Music" (grins)
deBhaal (grins)
Mark_CMG Throw out your suggestions rapid fire!
Wolf72 Enya!
Mark_CMG Conan soundtrack.
deBhaal Hmmm, don't have any Enya.
Mark_CMG Wagner.
Wolf72 Conan vote 2
Baastet I have a bunch of soundtracks I have hunted down... I am usually in charge of music even when I am not running.
Mark_CMG Heavy Metal of most kinds.
alsih2o Anything by anyone from Western Europe who has been dead for more than 50 years.
Mark_CMG Jethro Tull.
Wolf72 Hunt for Red October.
deBhaal Drownning Pool, Bodies is a good one for combat. (winks)
Baastet RPG game soundtracks like Baldur's gate and Icewind Dale.
Mark_CMG Genesis.
Wolf72 Soundtrack to Heavy Metal. (animated movie)
Mark_CMG Irish Folk music.
Wolf72 Babylon 5.
deBhaal Hmmm...
Baastet Bram Stoker's Dracula for good, spooky feel.
Wolf72 Irish: The Pogues.
Wolf72 AC/DC
Piratecat I'm going to excuse myself; my laptop battery is petering out, and I need food. Thank you, everyone; this has been fun!
Mark_CMG Thanks, Piratecat.
Wolf72 Ciao, Piratecat!
Baastet Excalibur: The Movie.
Mark_CMG Adios.
alsih2o Have a good night, Pkitty.
deBhaal Bye.
Baastet Bye, Pkitty.
Piratecat You, too! Definitiely an hour, or so, well spent. Night, all!
FastLearner I'm finishing up an application that lets you play mp3s, and other sounds, by type. You can classify certain songs as, say, "travel," "eerie," "combat," "tavern," etc., and the application will play through the list you specify (randomly without repeating). You just click on a type and the previous song fades out and the new one comes up. G'night, Pcat.
(Piratecat Quit)
Baastet Ooooooo, FastLearner. I want that. (winks)
Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Good idea.
Wolf72 Star Trek 6: Undiscovered Country.
deBhaal (to FastLearner) I could use one of those.
FastLearner I'll post a link to it on the EN World software forum when it's complete.
deBhaal (grins)
Mark_CMG There's a company called Toxic Bag productions that sells sound effects.
Wolf72 Holst: the Planets.
FastLearner I've seen those, Mark. Do you know if they're any good?
Mark_CMG I have The Game Masters Collection and it has a lot of useful sound effects.
Baastet Ring of the Neiberlung (orchestral version).
Wolf72 S'okay, Baastet. It's hard to type with paws. (smiles)
deBhaal (laughs)
deBhaal You should know. (winks)
Baastet DND the movie soundtrack, Harry Potter & LotR soundrack, anything by John Williams..... (winks and chuckles)
Wolf72 You ain't just whistlin dixie! ... and I'm not reccomending that. (winks)
Baastet (to Wolf72) It's typo gremlins, I tell yah...
Wolf72 Yup, John Williams is all good. (smiles)
Baastet Stargate has a great soundtrack.
Mark_CMG Okie doke. Let's move on to our second half agenda tonight. Let's collectively develop a short scenario...
(I'll be posting the second half in the comings days, including the pieces that were brain-stormed to develop the scenario. Hopefully, before the next session on Monday November 4th at 7pm, I'll have a revised copy of the scenario that can be used by anyone who wishes to use it. - MAC CMG)
Mon Oct 21 22:20:37 2002
(#CMG) Creative Mountain Games - Visit the CMG Site at http://www.creativemountaingames.com/
CMG DMing Chat sessions are held every other Monday night!
(Edited somewhat for brevity and clarity)
Participating:
alsih2o
Baastet
chatdemon
CMG_Nichar
deBhaal
FastLearner
Hildulf
Mark_CMG
Piratecat
Umbran
Wolf72
Mark_CMG Welcome, everyone! Does everyone here run D&D games (at least sometimes)?
Wolf72 Been a while, grad school is in the way ... but, yes.
deBhaal On occasion ... I'm working on being a better DM.
Baastet I have once. Does that count? Or am I just here to be the token female? (winks)
deBhaal (laughs) Token female... (winks)
Hildulf Unfortunately, I run games almost exclusively.
(Baastet chuckles)
deBhaal I co-ran one the other day.
alsih2o My group rotates the DM.
Piratecat Yup.
Baastet I do co-run lot though.
deBhaal That was more of a power game thing though.
Wolf72 Ick, I'm jealous already.
deBhaal Fun, nonetheless.
Hildulf Me, too.
(FastLearner joins)
Mark_CMG Howdy, FastLearner. First on the agenda is a run down of what we will be doing tonight.
(CMG_Nichar joins)
Mark_CMG Welcome back, Nichar.
Baastet Hi, Nichar.
deBhaal Hello, Nich.
CMG_Nichar Hi...decided to try and give it a shot. (Not feeling well)
Mark_CMG We'll try to accomplish a few things. Firstly, we'll make a list of troublesome DM topics. We'll look at some specific problems that some of us are dealing with (allowing the group to feed us solutions) then we'll look at fashioning a short adventure.
Piratecat Works for me.
deBhaal OK.
CMG_Nichar Me, too.
Baastet Sounds interesting. (smiles)
FastLearner Great!
deBhaal Fun at least. (smiles)
Wolf72 OK.
Mark_CMG If I could ask alsih2o2o to cut and paste some of the topic ideas we come up with, please?
Wolf72 I got one. (smiles)
Mark_CMG Wolf?
alsih2o Sure, Mark.
Mark_CMG Wolf, please, go right ahead. Thanks, alsih2o2o.
Wolf72 Um, it's kinda whiny, but ... dealing with players who also DM ... and forget they aren't DMing at the time.
Mark_CMG OK. That's a real good one.
deBhaal (chuckles) I've got one of those ...
Piratecat And I'm guilty as charged. (frowns)
Mark_CMG Anyone else? Just throw them out and we'll get a (longer) list (of topics) together.
deBhaal ...but he's new to 3E.
Baastet That is part of the reason I don't like to DM my group, Wolf. (winks)
deBhaal Overdoing XP is one ...
Wolf72 Well, giving ideas (to the DM) is okay, but direct challenges because of style is another thing. (Then to Baas) Agreed, I only play if those guys are in the game now.
Mark_CMG XP, yes. Tough to find the right formula for a group early on, eh?
Piratecat I'm having trouble getting my group into a dungeon crawl, as they're used to political games.
Wolf72 Oops. Sorry, Mark, we'll discuss topics later (after finishing the list).
deBhaal Yeah ... especially an overpowered one ...
Mark_CMG No problem, Wolf. PC, Yup. Switching gears in a campaign from one style of gaming to another.
(deBhaal prefers dungeon crawls, but that's just a personal preference.
alsih2o So, changing gears?
Mark_CMG Perfect, alsih2o2o.
Hildulf I had a player that was DMing the game before I started DMing 3e... He is a DM, and a Rules Lawyer. His challenges ended with, "Get in, sit down, hang on, and shut up". (smiles)
Wolf72 Would "Leveling fast" ... part of overdoing XP?
Mark_CMG I hear ya, Hildulf. (to FastLearner) Any potential topics?
(Umbran joins)
Wolf72 Rules lawyer v. rules aide?
Baastet Does anyone else have trouble running a "3-D combat" like involving Air or water or inside gelatinous cubes battles?
deBhaal Items ... and right levels to give what powers at ...
(Wolf72 like's deBhaal's topic)
deBhaal (smiles)
FastLearner A sub-issue with players who are DMs is those players insisting their house rules should apply since they make the most sense.
deBhaal I'm a beginning DM, so I haven't figured this stuff out yet.
Mark_CMG House rules promoted by players? Yup, good topic.
Baastet (to deBhaal) So am I (winks). I have 3 whole game sessions under my belt.
deBhaal Haven't had that problem yet, FastLearner ... in my group anyway. (laughs) (then to Baastet) That's more than me.
Mark_CMG Items, to give? Yupper.
deBhaal Also, other powers. Gaining them and such.
Umbran How to choose what Prestige classes to use in a campaign.
alsih2o More specifically, deBhaal?
Mark_CMG Has everyone thrown an idea out there? (Everyone who has one in mind?)
Wolf72 High power and low power gaming, ideas for each?
FastLearner Matching challenges to a party's actual capabilities instead of a CR?
deBhaal A friend of mine has a mage at level 38 that can cast MM at will.
Mark_CMG Ah yes, PrCs, which to include?
deBhaal Gaining spell-like abilities, I guess is what I mean.
Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Yup. Balancing for the players, and not so much the characters and their levels, right?
FastLearner Right.
Baastet Scaling adventures gives me problems.....
Mark_CMG I understand, deBhaal.
deBhaal Yeah.
Wolf72 Adding to Baastet's idea: scaling old 1E/2E adventures ...
Mark_CMG Scaling, tough to do, especially when you DM infrequently.
Baastet Yes, Mark. (chuckles) Especially when you are not quite sure about CR's anyway.
deBhaal DMing people who don't know 3E rules ...but know 2E.
Piratecat I'm good at scaling.
Mark_CMG Baas, Yup. (laughs) (Then to deBhaal) That's a tough one, too.
deBhaal Sometimes.
(Wolf72 would add something to deBhaal's comment, but it's just me whining.) (smiles)
Mark_CMG OK. Let's use the list that we have as a start, eh?
deBhaal At least he's a fast learner (the 2E player) .. and we have a complete newbie in the group, too.
Mark_CMG I think we have about a dozen topics. Allow me give alsih2o2o a second to organize them, then let's tackle the first one. "Players who also DM (and direct challenges to the DM)." Wolf, this was your topic. Give us an example of the problem, please.
deBhaal (chuckles)
Wolf72 Probably back to deBhaal's ...
deBhaal Wolf?
Wolf72 They don't want to listen, just do it they way they would have ... and instead of questioning it's challenging.
Mark_CMG Well, we mentioned "rules lawyer-ing vs. just giving some aid," right?
Wolf72 Si, senor.
Mark_CMG Is there a specific time that this happened where it really messed up a night's session?
Wolf72 Hoo boy ...
Piratecat The best thing you can do when someone is challenging your authority as DM is to take them aside privately; challenging them in front of the other players just sets up a bad scene.
Wolf72 First 3e DMing experience ...
Mark_CMG One rule that just couldn't be agreed upon?
Piratecat I've found that asking them nicely to let you run the game usually works wonders.
FastLearner In our group of 6, five of us take turns DMing. When a couple of the DMs were new we certainly had a problem with them succumbing to players' rules interpretations, but this tends to happen with all new DMs.
Wolf72 No, I was right ... had almost to force them to look it up rather than rely on memory.
Baastet Pkitty, (chuckles), unless you're married to them ... (smiles)
Mark_CMG True, PC, that can work among good friends (and sometimes even at conventions, eh?).
Piratecat Nah, Baastet, my wife slaps me down all the time. (smiles)
FastLearner I've not played much at cons... I'd guess it's a bigger problem there?
Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) True, also (regarding the first thing you said about newer DMs).
Wolf72 I would ask, "We'll look it up?" ... response: "NO, I KNOW I'm right!"
Mark_CMG I think at conventions a DM has a little more pull, if he knows the rules at least fairly well.
Umbran (to Wolf72) Which backfires if you're not correct...
Piratecat We have a loosely enforced house rule: if you plan to cast a spell or use an obscure rule, have the book open when it's your turn. Saves lots of time.
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) Ever have many problems with players questioning your calls (at conventions)?
Wolf72 True, but I don't mind giving in if the rules say otherwise ... my players would complain more (if I didn't give in).
Piratecat Very seldom, Mark. I had a rules lawyer at GenCon in one game....
Mark_CMG Do tell... (smiles)
Piratecat I had to thank him and remind him that I do know the rules. He backed right down. For some folks, it's a dominance battle.
Wolf72 Yup. (Regarding
"Attacking over creature of the same size" (a player) refused to believe that someone 5'5" provided cover in front of someone over 6'5". I tried to explain, in 3E Medium-sized is Medium-sized (the situation had to do with reach weapon).Piratecat I have only had to really deal with this maybe three times in 300+ convention games. Lucky.
alsih2o Sounds lucky, indeed.
Mark_CMG I had a similar problem just last GenCon.
Wolf72 (In response, I) would get back: "Well in *my* game"...
Mark_CMG An entire group signed up for one of my sessions (as a team) and the DM of their home group gave me a bit of trouble over whether or not an intelligent NPC should be able to figure out that while he was invisible, there was someone tying off the end of a rope. (I had to put my foot down.) I had been running the game so that everyone could still stay at the table even if they weren't together, provided that they kept player and character knowledge separate. But when this one fellow decided to argue every rule, even though I had been giving the group that leeway, I asked him to come to another table. I kept them separate for about fifteen minutes, and it seemed to do the trick.
Piratecat Part of it is actually knowing the rules. If I'm not sure, I have someone look it up for me. Wolf, house rules don't travel. Period. (smiles)
Wolf72 PC, I do that but I kept getting, "I know the rule." Gotta 'member that one. (smiles)
Piratecat You know what might work?...
Wolf72 I guess my "prove it" statement was a bit harsh though
Piratecat Say, "Yes, you do, but as DM I need to see it myself in order to remember it." Place the onus on you, and they'll likely respond.
Mark_CMG That's a good way to do it.
Wolf72 I think after the 3rd or 4th challenge though, I begin to fail my diplomacy checks. (frowns)
Piratecat KidCthulhu tells me that when I get rules lawyer-y. It settles me back down. (grins)
deBhaal I don't have any rules lawyer-ing but that maybe because I'm the most fluent with the 3E rules in my games ..
Wolf72 It just seemed like for most of my players it was a challenge to try to beat the DM (me) rather than play the game
Piratecat The truth is, the DM is in charge, and if folks want to play they should be polite and follow house rules. If a house rule is "show me the rule in the rulebook", they will hopefully get used to it.
(Wolf72 thinks of another problem, "when players don't travel with the DM and don't let the DM know if they're going to show up")
Piratecat And remember! Reward good behavior. Subtly discourage bad behavior. Thank people who do it properly.
FastLearner I'm fortunate to have players (who are DMs) who don't see it as player vs. DM right now. In previous years I've worked to point out that the challenge is *inside* the game world, not *outside*.
Baastet (to Piratecat) What do you do to discourage bad behavior?
Wolf72 (to Piratecat) I don't mean to be the nay sayer but it reminds of my students. ("How come they get all the *good stuff*?", "Why are you always yelling at me?"...)
Mark_CMG What about the new player, new to your game but not to the rules, that wants to introduce House Rules from other games to your table?
Piratecat Tone of voice, mostly. Subtle stuff. (to Mark) I'd deal with that away from the table.
FastLearner Yup, tone of voice, body language, and attention paying seem to work best.
Piratecat That discussion happens over lunch, not during the game.
Mark_CMG I see, "Ask then to hold off until between sessions."
Wolf72 Good one. (Wolf72 is liking this session.)
Mark_CMG But even if it is away from the table, how do you handle requests that may seem odd or unreasonable to you?
Piratecat I'd say, "No," but I'd try to keep an open mind.
Umbran Depends. Is it a request, or a demand?
alsih2o It seems that recalling what belongs in-session and who is the DM. are both important.
Mark_CMG Usually a request. (smiles)
Piratecat 3E needs so few house rules, it'd have to be something fairly spectacular.
CMG_Nichar Oh?
Umbran Requests can be dealt with via reason - inform the player of why you'd prefer not to use the rule. Demands are a bit more sticky.
deBhaal What about homemade PrCs and such?
Mark_CMG I think it is a good idea to let them know just why it would maybe upset the balance of your particular game. (to UMB) Yup. (smiles) (the to deBhaal) Has that come up for you?
deBhaal ...or even redo's of present PrCs?
FastLearner One tricky thing about DMing in general is that lots and lots of "rules" aren't found in any books, even with 3e. Just as in Monopoly it doesn't say that you can't postpone your turn for 3 days but we all know that there's an implicit rule that you must take your turn in a reasonable time. So, too, are there a bunch of rules in RPGing that you sometimes have to actually *teach* with certain players.
Wolf72 I had a player that asked my advice ... and he came up with a darn good PrC, I was just helping edit
Mark_CMG Can you give us an example?
deBhaal Not quite, but might soon.
Piratecat (to deBhaal) I'd have to dissect it with a critical eye, and would only allow it with the understanding that we may tweak it if problems arise.
Baastet (to deBhaal) Well you always have the final say in homemade PrC's .. but I would make sure it is balanced.. Which is my chant with all things .. (winks) "Is it balanced .. Is it fair...? "
deBhaal Well, I altered the Paladin class a bit for a friend, because that was the closest to his character concept, but he wasn't the Lawful Good type guy.
Piratecat I allow occasional redo of PCs after new source books come out.
FastLearner Including the most important implicit rule: The DM is trying to make the game fun for everyone, so you need to play along. This applies to PrCs and everything else, I believe.
Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) True.
deBhaal Yes.
Mark_CMG (to deBhall) How did you alter it?
Wolf72 Me? ... I did that for someone who was thinking of a duelist type ... got far, then the dragon mag came out.
alsih2o It can also help to point out that "this" campaign may not be the best to playtest a new concept.
deBhaal Dropped some of the special abilities, removed Heavy armor proficiency, and altered the spell list.
Mark_CMG (to alsih2o2o) Yup, that can be a reasonable way to handle it.
deBhaal Gave him a +(bonus) against undead.
Wolf72 (laughs) ...or 'remember when I said low power, and low magic?' I kinda want to stay with it, but let's start work on another campaign with those ideas?
Mark_CMG So you wanted to help him gear the PC as an Undead hunter of sorts?
deBhaal Allowed him to be Neutral Good. (to Mark_CMG) Yes.
FastLearner Indeed, and while RPGing is certainly shared storytelling, the DM must still decide the "reality" of this campaign. If a particular PrC simply doesn't exist in your world, the player simply can't get the training or follow the path.
Baastet (to deBhaal) One of the best things with one of my old GM's was that he worked with me to advance my character, allowing me to multiclass my monk into a Paladin. It took a lot of work through roleplaying but I could see a tangible reward for all the great roleplaying we had done over the 8 months and it stuck with me.
FastLearner (to Baas) Good point.
deBhaal Yeah. (smiles)
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Excellent. (to deBhaal) Did the idea of an Undead hunter fit your game, or did you have to adjust the game to fit what the player wanted to play?
deBhaal Just the class.
Mark_CMG How's that? (Can you elaborate?)
deBhaal I'm kinda doing published adventures, and adding in, or taking away what I don't like.
Mark_CMG I see.
deBhaal I meant the class fit in the game, I didn't need to alter the game.
Mark_CMG So the game you run is fairly flexible for that sort of thing?
deBhaal Yep. I don't like "rigid" much.
Mark_CMG That's a good thing to avoid. Let's move on to a related topic.
(deBhaal chuckles)
Wolf72 Okay. (smiles)
Mark_CMG The XP awards - How do you decide if they need adjusting for your personal concept of the game?
Piratecat (chuckles) My group levels once every 10-12 sessions.
Wolf72 Wow, PC .. tell more?
deBhaal Hmmm, I know I give too much XP.
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) Which is kinda slow by some standards, eh?
(chatdemon joins)
Mark_CMG Howdy Rich (chatdemon).
deBhaal Or did.
Baastet Hi, chatdemon.
chatdemon Yo.
Piratecat I decided early on that I wanted a long-term campaign - 11 years, now. We found it made for very rich PCs.
Mark_CMG (to Rich) CMG_Nichar will PM (private message) you with where in the discussion we are currently. (smiles)
Piratecat Rich as in character and personality, not cash. (smiles)
Mark_CMG Nice.
Piratecat In 3E, with the faster advancement, we saw no reason to change things.
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) I see. So with a focus on character depth, a slower progression serves you well?
Piratecat Very much so. In Sagiro's campaign as well.
Umbran Okay, so PC, how frequently do you have combats?
Wolf72 Do you cut down on the amount of XP awards? (the .5 example?)
Mark_CMG How does it feel from the other side of the table? Ever want it to move a bit faster?
Piratecat But we have stable players. In college, with people coming and leaving, it wouldn't work as well.
Mark_CMG Umbran, had a particularly good question there. "How frequently do you have combats?"
Wolf72 Ah ... my example from above was a college experience ... (same with other problem)
deBhaal I give way too much compared to PC. (chuckles) Well, would be (too much) in his game.
chatdemon I cut XP awards by 10 myself
Piratecat Wolf, it's confession time. I usually just toss encounters at the group, then figure out standard XP... and adjust it so that people level when they "should." Heretical!
Wolf72 I like that!
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) (chuckles)
Wolf72 ... but now we have to stone you, sorry! (winks)
Piratecat Cutting it by 10 would have about the same effect, although we have a combat-light game usually.
Umbran Not Heretical, just not for all groups.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) To 10% of normal?
alsih2o Does everyone keep the same XP reward rate throughout the campaign or do you find some levels feel better played slower?
chatdemon Yeah, 10% of suggested.
Mark_CMG I see.
deBhaal Hmmm...
Mark_CMG (to alsih2o) Good question.
Wolf72 I don't mind taking a few sessions to level. It lets me get a feel for my character's new abilities!
FastLearner I try to have at least one combat, one puzzle/strategy issue, and one solid roleplaying session every game, so XP goes pretty fast but not nearly as fast as if I'd focused on combat
Piratecat (to Umbran) We have maybe one big fight every other game.
Umbran I've occasionally seen folks want to take levels 1-3 slower than the rest, because as is they whip by pretty darned fast.
Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) That's a good balance.
FastLearner On the player side, I like about 5-7 or so sessions per level.
deBhaal I like fast leveling.
Mark_CMG (to Umbran) Does that help you to build the characters with more detail?
Piratecat If I was starting a new game with new players, I'd probably have them level every 5 sessions or so.
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) So you would change the old formula you use? Why the speedier game?
Wolf72 I'd like that ... I feel cheated if I don't have a chance to ever experiment with my skills or new feat.
Umbran The players find it often does. If you're treating a 1st level character as "a babe in the woods", slowing down early advancement helps them deal with certain things... like the fact they've never "killed" anything before...
Piratecat For brand new players, Mark, a speedier leveling process isn't a bad thing.
alsih2o I agree.
Mark_CMG There is a risk of over-indulging with characters, if you move too slow, and thereby becoming so attached that it makes character death a big loss, or the possibility of boredom creeping over some players.
deBhaal I'll probably slow down XP a bit.
alsih2o People new to the game like the feeling of advancement.
Piratecat When people start to chafe about XP, it's usually time to award it. (smiles)
deBhaal (chuckles)
Mark_CMG (smiles)
chatdemon The trick is finding other rewards besides XP.
Mark_CMG Anything more to say on this topic at this point?
deBhaal Not really.
Piratecat I don't announce XP awards until someone is leveling, or a story arc finishes.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) Very good point.
Piratecat Yes, chatdemon is correct.
Baastet Well, as a player, I like to see some reward if there has been lotsa good combat/roleplaying/ideas etc.
Mark_CMG Let's use that to springboard into the other items and rewards for PCs and how best to dole them out?
CMG_Nichar I should be finally getting back to the gaming table as a player this Wednesday.. With Sir-Gish-Makai as my DM.... I have no idea how he handles level advancements.
Baastet As you said chat rewards other than XP are always nice.
deBhaal ...such as weapons, scrolls, money, friends...
chatdemon In my opinion, cutting down XP and cutting down cash flow should go hand in hand.
Mark_CMG deBhaal brought up "items for the right level"
deBhaal Enemies (ongoing NPCs) can be a good thing ... for DMs anyway.
Piratecat I like in-game awards. Notoriety, fame, privileges, etc.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) True. Let's talk a bit about lower levels perks.
chatdemon ...then money can be used as a reward, and the characters actually have to work for the cool new items they want which can give them a sense of accomplishment.
alsih2o Yes, a stable game world where the effects of the PCs actions can be seen.
Piratecat Regarding "items for the right level" - the wealth guidelines can act as a check and balance.
Wolf72 (to Piratecat) Good quotable.
Baastet And not to mention romances or general things for character developement, like being able to freely multi between 2 normally restriced classes.....
FastLearner I find one of the best and least-unbalancing non-xp awards is simply giving a player a chance to shine.
Wolf72 ... what's right for "x"-level?
Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) That's very important.
FastLearner Like creating an encouter that let's a particular player's or character's skills stand out.
Wolf72 (to FastLearner) Yup-Yup!
alsih2o FastLearner is right. Make them feel like the characters are important and you have them hooked.
Mark_CMG And to use a roleplaying encounter, such as one that Baastet suggests, is a good way to do that.
Wolf72 ...or that their skills do matter.
chatdemon I'm not sure what you mean by lower level perks.
deBhaal Reasons for people to like low levels or enjoy low levels a bit more.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) Things that appeal to the lower level characters that are important to introduce to the game at those levels. Such as dealing with some of the background ideas of the players
Wolf72 Ooh, muy bien ... especially with experienced players who think that 1st lvl is just a beginner level with nothing interesting.
deBhaal Enemies!
Mark_CMG Including some familial encounters.
chatdemon Fame or infamy is a good perk, in my opinion.
Hildulf Dang.... I'm back....
Piratecat One thing to remember: a character ability that never gets used (paladin's mount, anybody?) is not actually a benefit. When my player's cleric got regenerate, I spent sessions trying to chop off a limb, just so he could use it.
deBhaal Yeah, my friend's character ... his family was killed by undead.
Mark_CMG Perhaps explaining the reasoning as to why someone would even adventure in the first place.
chatdemon If the NPCs start to actually recognize the characters' deeds.
Wolf72 (laughs) Piratecat!
deBhaal (laughs)
Piratecat Thus, use ranger's species enemies, and undead, and set up circumstances that play to the PCs' strengths.
Baastet I find that some of my "non combat" magic items were the most appreciated by my low level players. They had things like a insect repellent cube, and an iron that heated and dried items when rubbed over it. They were very small, totally non-combat, but they gave the PCs something useful even at a very low level.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) Do you use a lot of player's background to set up early sessions?
alsih2o Low levels are your chance to make the world real.
Piratecat Well said.
Wolf72 Agreed ... and it can seem like a curse ... "Man! Everywhere I go it's undead!" (ala Buffy)
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Yupperoo!
chatdemon Not really, I dont like the "custom made for you adventure" types.
Piratecat Neat idea, Baastet.
Mark_CMG (to alsih2o) Very true.
chatdemon I prefer to see PCs as ordinary Joes who stumble upon an adventure.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) How do you introduce them into the game?
(deBhaal has an agent type person that sent the characters on their first adventure.)
Wolf72 (to chatdemon) ... at least an opportunity here and there?
Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) That's always good.
deBhaal Yeah.
Mark_CMG Any other ideas on that?
chatdemon I'll use the backgrounds to get the party together, then present the adventure to them.
Wolf72 Introduce into game? Eek! (Confession - very weak point for me.)
Mark_CMG OK, just to bring them together, but allow them to find adventure as a group, eh?
Wolf72 Yup.
chatdemon I make each player come up with 3 distinct goals, and try and tie the adventure to what the players want, not where their PC came from.
deBhaal (to Mark_CMG) Something like that.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) I see. That is an excellent way to do it. Who else uses character goals as a springboard?
Baastet We use backgrounds as sub-plots and tie-ins to major plots. It gives the players something "personal" to deal with.
deBhaal An adventure I'm in with another group online started as a mercenary group...
Wolf72 Goals vs background ... I like that.
deBhaal ...more like a babysitting job though.
chatdemon So if the bard's goals include wanting to find the songs of some famous bard, I'll toss a hint about that bard into the adventure hook. For example...
FastLearner I use goals, indeed. The only problem I have with them is trying to remember to include them often enough. (smiles)
deBhaal (chuckles)
Wolf72 Index cards work well.
Mark_CMG Very important to make notes.
Piratecat I build them into big plot points.
(Baastet is woefully un-organized)
Wolf72 Although some players do make dming feel more like a chore than fun. (smiles) Wolf72 is guilty, too. Sorry Paul! (-Wolf72's big brother-)
deBhaal (to Baastet) Me, too. I scratch out basics of the ememes right before a fight. (frowns)
Mark_CMG While chatdemon is typing his example, let's throw out some organizational ideas too help Baastet.
chatdemon Once a goal is completed, I ask them to create a new one, so there are always 3 goals per PC, and I ask them to be realistic.
Mark_CMG Index cards was mentioned...
Wolf72 5x8, even.
Piratecat Interesting idea, chatdemon.
Baastet I have my own DM-sprial notebook.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) So goals accomplished always lead to bigger goals?
Wolf72 Punch holes ... get some rings and viola!
chatdemon Realistic goals I mean, ruling the world isn't a realistic goal for a level 1 fighter, owning a masterwork sword is.
deBhaal (laughs)
Hildulf DM spiral notebook is always a good plan...
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) True.
deBhaal (to chatdemon) Sure it is ... just a really long term goal and three others to be used now.
chatdemon Yeah, the goals get bigger and more grandiose as they level up.
Baastet (to Mark_CMG) I think part of it is needing a bigger GM-area. (winks) I feel squished behind the gm screen.
alsih2o I actually keep index cards on a keychain with notes on all the PCs, and most of the NPCs.
deBhaal I'd end up losing it.
alsih2o (smiles)
Mark_CMG Does anyone like to DM without a DM screen?
Piratecat Me.
chatdemon I never use a screen.
alsih2o Me, too.
chatdemon Never have...
CMG_Nichar Me... when I used to DM.
Piratecat I often do anyways, but I don't especially like it.
deBhaal i just like the nice art work on it.
Hildulf I DM without a DM screen all the time.
chatdemon If I fudge a roll, they'll know I fudged a roll. (smiles)
Wolf72 Yes ... some of my players won't stare, others would constantly try to second guess or get an up by looking at my notes.
Mark_CMG How many actually use the charts on the DM screens in game?
chatdemon ...and I'll explain why...
FastLearner I don't like the separation, but I do like the ability to keep things private.
Wolf72 (raises hand) I use mine as a dice shield mostly.
Baastet (chuckles) My players would read my notes if I didn't use one.
Hildulf Correction... I roll dice ON the DM screen (I lay it flat). Because I do use the charts...
Mark_CMG Ah... I see... (smiles and winks)
deBhaal I use 'em, when I need them.
Wolf72 So. Umm... It's got charts and stuff too? (winks)
chatdemon A lot of times, we dont even sit around the dinner table, we just pull up a seat on a couch or on the floor in the living room, so the screen becomes a moot point.
Mark_CMG (to Hildulf) Best of both worlds, eh?
chatdemon I obviously don't use minis most of the time.
Piratecat I don't use the charts; I use it as a notes screen. I DM from the middle of the table, not the end, so screening the notes becomes important.
FastLearner I'm working on my own LARGE TYPE tables for use with that slip-in DM screen I bought because the little tables with poor light (inside the screened area) make it too difficult to use them.
deBhaal I need minis.
Hildulf Yup... I like rolls in the open.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) More comfortable setting that way?
Baastet Ahh, to use minis or not to use minis..... How many do?
chatdemon Our sessions can run 8 to 10 houirs on a good weekend, sitting at the table gets uncomfortable.
Wolf72 I've had players ask me not to roll in the open, I somehow roll better (for the NPCs) in the open.
Mark_CMG So most use some sort of "hidden area" for their notes, at least? ...and their dice?
Hildulf I would use minis if I had them....
FastLearner We all use minis since 3E. I love the combination of role playing and tactical boardgaming.
Hildulf But nobody makes a Winged Minotaur mini...
Wolf72 "How long should your session be?" ... new question?*
deBhaal I would, too .. i just use paper. My sessions are till we get bored, and then we do somethign else.
FastLearner Yup, mostly to shield my notes and rolls.
Mark_CMG OK, let's get back to one of PCs suggested problem areas - "shifting gears" as from a political game to a dungeon crawl.
chatdemon (to deBhaal) That's how we do it usually, we go until everyone is bored or asleep.
Baastet (to Hildulf) (chuckles) Winged minotaur is easy enough to convert. Yes we use minis ... mmmmmm minis.
Piratecat Regarding - "shifting gears" --
Hildulf Session lasts until the first person starts drooling and snoring on their character sheet.
Baastet Hmm... Well, since I have rarely been in a politcal game (to my great constrenation and frustration), I can't say... (frowns)
Piratecat Last game, my PCs were in a "dungeon" (a treasure vault) for the first time in ages. They're all about 16th level. No one thought to search.
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Even from town to dungeon and such?
Piratecat They just kept looking at me, waiting for interaction. It was disquieting.
alsih2o (laughs)
deBhaal (laughs)
Wolf72 (laughs)
Piratecat I have to think I did something wrong on the transition.
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) ...and how did you prompt them?
Wolf72 I need to work on goals of dungeon delving ...
Baastet Well, I had a hard time shifting my PCs from a city to sewers beneath (chuckles) but eventually I used a sub-plot to tantalize them into expolring it.
(Wolf72 thanks chatdemon) (smiles)
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Tell us more about that, please?
Piratecat Well, I dropped a half dozen obvious hints that everyone ignored, so they left the room that had stuff they needed and continued on. (smiles)
deBhaal I was DMing my brother once, and he wanted to walk by the chasm that he was supposed to go down... (laughs)
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) So they wound up missing some treasure?
chatdemon (to deBhaal) So have him fall. (smiles)
Mark_CMG (laughs)
Hildulf Ah ha! "To railroad, or not to railroad... THAT is the question."
Piratecat Later, I mentioned some of the typical things they might have done - and people said, "Oh, yeah! Whoops."
deBhaal (to chatdemon) No, I just told him he saw a greater Blue dragon Flying towards him ... he was level 4
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) So a lesson learned. (smiles)
alsih2o I think this has quickly evolved into a "player guidance without railroading" sub-discussion. (smiles)
Wolf72 Railroad! ... I mean um, because I said so .. wait no ...
Piratecat Not treasure, essential clues on how to get further into the vault. Now they'll have to figure it out the hard way.
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) So this is ongoing?
chatdemon (to Piratecat) Though thats probably a bit annoying for the DM, it's actually somewhat realistic behavoir from the party, they're out of practice.
Piratecat Yes. They're half-way in.
Wolf72 Do they get frustrated PC? Or do they accept that they may have missed clues?
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) True.
Piratecat Probably true, Rich.
Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Well, I had them already involved in a plot with a missing merchant, since they had to go through the sewers to find him to get the infomation to continue along the "main" storyline. I decided to use the missing merchant as a springboard and made a full blown aub-plot of people missing throughout the city (they learned this as they were exploring the city.)
Piratecat They'll accept it. What bugs me is that at least one player seemed frustrated in game. I don't like that.
Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Eventually they found out it was a secret socitey that was doing experiements on people and turning them into new types of undead....
Piratecat I wish I had found a way to get him drawn in more effectively; maybe a "pep talk" from a knowledgeable no problem?
chatdemon What I try to keep everyone's mind on is the fact they are adventurers, though they may spend some time in throne room politics or on the battlefield with the army, they are always looking for the trap doors, or the ambush.
Hildulf Political Ambush....
Wolf72 ... I'd like it if they would accept that setbacks can be fun, too.
deBhaal Innuendo...
Mark_CMG Yes, chatdemon. (to Piratecat) Were you describing things in a different way, to remind them that they were in a different environment?
Piratecat A fine thing. I worry they may be turning into one trick ponies. The paladin's idea of searching was to constantly detect evil, and that's it.
FastLearner Ooh, indeed, Wolf. Setbacks just make victories that much sweeter, but it's really hard to see from a player perspective.
deBhaal The rogue wasn't searching?
Piratecat Describing things in a different way, how??
Piratecat No rogue.
deBhaal Oh...
chatdemon I've seen that, usually from the rogues though 'I check for traps, I pick the lock, I open the door, next'
Wolf72 Agreed, but getting the snot kicked out of my PC can be fun, too.
FastLearner Amen!
Baastet The trial and tribulations of a PC can be very rewarding when they finally succeed.
deBhaal Hmmm...(deBhaal is hungry...)
(CMG_Nichar Quit)
chatdemon That goes back to the low level perks thing, have an NPC beat the crap out of the party a few times, and they feel really good when they finally beat him.
Baastet Especially if it is involving them specifically like from soMe background thing.
Mark_CMG In such a way as to remind them that they were not in a court room/town/typical environment for their usual behavior patterns?
Piratecat Probably true, Baastet. I just worry that this mini-adventure will feel more like a chore than fun if I don't change something. (to Mark_CMG) Example?
Baastet (to Piratecat) That is always a problem...
Hildulf What's the most difficult formula for you (as a DM) to remember, which is NOT on the DM screen?
Piratecat The lack of a rogue is probably the key to the problem, now that I think of it.
Mark_CMG Well, depends on the setting, but for instance, making sure to mention how alone they are in the dungeon, how things echo because of its size and emptiness.
Hildulf For ME, it is the Cleric "Turn Undead" formula...
alsih2o I am sure a party of appropriate level looks at nearly everything differently, searching thru drawers for 10 gp is boring when you have a +3 frostbrand as a backup sword.
Piratecat Yup. Got that. (smiles)
Wolf72 I tried to write a short story after each significant session ... to lighten it up and let the PCs see what I was thinking.
chatdemon What about introducing a 'rival' party that is also exploring the dungeon, so they can interact with those NPCs, and there is a sense of urgency and competition?
Baastet (to Hildulf) Grappleing & Tripping .. always causes alot of debate.
Mark_CMG (to chatdemon) Good idea.
Hildulf Grappling and tripping... another difficult one...
Piratecat That's the other weird thing, alsih2o. They see a room full of gold, and say, "Eh. We don't need gold." (grins)
deBhaal Well, most parts of combat I have no problem with.
alsih2o NPCs also allow you to question the characters and get their perspective. (to Piratecat) Yes, the jaded party syndrome. (smiles)
Mark_CMG (to Piratecat) That's a whole different problem... (winks)
Wolf72 (to Piratecat) Oh, you should meet one of my friends/dm ... everything COSTS ... (smiles)
alsih2o (to Mark_CMG) I disagree.
Piratecat A fine idea, Rich, but not applicable here - I think. I'll think on it. (to Mark_CMG) They're in the underdark. No stores!
Mark_CMG (grins)
alsih2o (to Mark_CMG) I think part of the reason the party may have not stopped to search is that after a while nothing worth having is small enough to hide. (smiles)
Piratecat Anyways, enough of my dilemma. You folks gave me some good ideas. Thank you.
Mark_CMG How do they deal with the mundane tasks of living down there?
FastLearner Diamonds and rings are pretty small... (smiles)
Baastet (to Piratecat) How often do things of thiers get destroyed?
Mark_CMG Let me take a moment to address this a little further, if I may?
alsih2o (to FastLearner) That is why it is a MISconception. (smiles)
Piratecat (to Mark_CMG) A Mordenkainen's MAgnificent Mansion provides all the food. (then to Baastet) Last game a dragon tried to eat all their weapons. Improved disarm -> swallow.
Mark_CMG Beyond just dealing with food and shelter, there are any number of things that are far easier to handle while in a civilized area than in a hostile environment.
Baastet Sleep... Well, the safety of sleeping. (chuckles)
Mark_CMG The shelter works while they are resting, but just moving through such a place has a tendancy to make people dirty. And, not to be indiscreet, there are the simple things like stopping to sit for a moment, and relieving oneself, that while it isn't necessary to go into detail, can be mentioned just to drive home how uncomfortable the environment is.
Piratecat True. Interesting color text.
chatdemon Not that a medieval castle is much more comfortable.
Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Not to mention fresh foods ... dried rations get old after eating them for 3 times a day for a week.
Mark_CMG Even wiping sweat from the forehead should leave a trail of dirt over their face.
alsih2o A good reminder of the comparable discomfort of adventuring goes a long way.
Piratecat They'll run out of clean cantrips.... (chuckles).
Mark_CMG Small pebbles in their shoes, broken straps on their packs...
deBhaal (chuckles)
Baastet Wear and tear on clothing and equipment...
Piratecat Jermalaine!
Mark_CMG Things that wouldn't be a big problem in civilization.
Wolf72 101 mundane nuisances for adventures. (smiles)
(chatdemon left)
Baastet (laughs) Pkitty, my players hate Jermalaine, pixies and mephits.
Piratecat I can imagine.
Mark_CMG Little noises down side hallways that cause them to waste a light spell, etc.
Piratecat Mark, we can move on if you want - I now have some good ideas!
Mark_CMG OK.
Piratecat Thank you again.
Mark_CMG I think the last topic we have is 3 dimensional combat?
alsih2o pretty much
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Was that your topic?
Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Yah. It all stems from a 25' pit trap and a gelatinous cube.
Mark_CMG How to deal with flying (or swimming) encounters, etc.
Piratecat 3d combat: use the clear plastic boxes that come with your dice to place flying figures on.
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) Ah, just a land enounter with three dimensions. I see.
Wolf72 Hey, swim and fly ... according to sage/301 ... fly works underwater.
deBhaal I dont have clear plastic things ...
Mark_CMG It's a good idea to have a tape measure, for one. (smiles)
Wolf72 Or decent sized d6's.
deBhaal (to Wolf72) Err ... how does it (fly spell) work underwater?
Mark_CMG And using anything handy, to give you some levels, is good.
Wolf72 (yahtzee)
Mark_CMG I'll bet most of you have a bookshelf full of paperbacks in the house, eh?
Wolf72 (to deBhaal) ... just lets use your flying speed ...
FastLearner Yeah, too many discussions about a-squared plus b-squared = c-squared without the tape measure.
Baastet But what if, like in a gelatinous cube, they are engulfed?
Mark_CMG I used to use poker chips to denote who was five feet, ten feet high, etc.
Baastet swore if she had another gelatinouscube/pit trap she is making a jello jiggler for stuffing minis in....)
FastLearner Good idea, Mark!
deBhaal I have some of those ...
alsih2o I DO like the poker chip deal!
Baastet (to Mark_CMG) Good idea!
Mark_CMG (to Baastet) That might be the best way to deal with it. (laughs)
Mark_CMG Barring the poker chips, tearing up a piece of paper and writing the height on the edges can be useful (or colored paper if it is available).
deBhaal Hmmm, kind of an off-tangent, what kind of music do you listen to while playing?
Mark_CMG Some people just use their larger six siders.
Mark_CMG (to deBhaal) No tangents, please. (smiles)
Baastet Well, we use a megamat so we write the distances along side the characters for aerial combat.
alsih2o We have often used a piece of graph paper on the wall to denote height in combat. So, we are seeing combat from above and the side.
Mark_CMG I like to also "split the mat"
Baastet (to alsih2o) Good idea.
Wolf72 Anyone have the old game "Chopper Strike"? ... it had two levels, one for jeeps, the others for huey's (helicopters).
FastLearner (to alsih2o) Another great idea!
Mark_CMG Putting some books under half of the mat if the distance in height in far enough works well.
(Hildulf left)
Wolf72 Of course ... someone is bound to bump it and send everything 'flying' for real.
deBhaal (laughs)
Mark_CMG (laughs)
alsih2o So, mark, time left to create an encounter or adventure?
Mark_CMG Absolutely! But one more quick topic... "Music" (grins)
deBhaal (grins)
Mark_CMG Throw out your suggestions rapid fire!
Wolf72 Enya!
Mark_CMG Conan soundtrack.
deBhaal Hmmm, don't have any Enya.
Mark_CMG Wagner.
Wolf72 Conan vote 2
Baastet I have a bunch of soundtracks I have hunted down... I am usually in charge of music even when I am not running.
Mark_CMG Heavy Metal of most kinds.
alsih2o Anything by anyone from Western Europe who has been dead for more than 50 years.
Mark_CMG Jethro Tull.
Wolf72 Hunt for Red October.
deBhaal Drownning Pool, Bodies is a good one for combat. (winks)
Baastet RPG game soundtracks like Baldur's gate and Icewind Dale.
Mark_CMG Genesis.
Wolf72 Soundtrack to Heavy Metal. (animated movie)
Mark_CMG Irish Folk music.
Wolf72 Babylon 5.
deBhaal Hmmm...
Baastet Bram Stoker's Dracula for good, spooky feel.
Wolf72 Irish: The Pogues.
Wolf72 AC/DC
Piratecat I'm going to excuse myself; my laptop battery is petering out, and I need food. Thank you, everyone; this has been fun!
Mark_CMG Thanks, Piratecat.
Wolf72 Ciao, Piratecat!
Baastet Excalibur: The Movie.
Mark_CMG Adios.
alsih2o Have a good night, Pkitty.
deBhaal Bye.
Baastet Bye, Pkitty.
Piratecat You, too! Definitiely an hour, or so, well spent. Night, all!
FastLearner I'm finishing up an application that lets you play mp3s, and other sounds, by type. You can classify certain songs as, say, "travel," "eerie," "combat," "tavern," etc., and the application will play through the list you specify (randomly without repeating). You just click on a type and the previous song fades out and the new one comes up. G'night, Pcat.
(Piratecat Quit)
Baastet Ooooooo, FastLearner. I want that. (winks)
Mark_CMG (to FastLearner) Good idea.
Wolf72 Star Trek 6: Undiscovered Country.
deBhaal (to FastLearner) I could use one of those.
FastLearner I'll post a link to it on the EN World software forum when it's complete.
deBhaal (grins)
Mark_CMG There's a company called Toxic Bag productions that sells sound effects.
Wolf72 Holst: the Planets.
FastLearner I've seen those, Mark. Do you know if they're any good?
Mark_CMG I have The Game Masters Collection and it has a lot of useful sound effects.
Baastet Ring of the Neiberlung (orchestral version).
Wolf72 S'okay, Baastet. It's hard to type with paws. (smiles)
deBhaal (laughs)
deBhaal You should know. (winks)
Baastet DND the movie soundtrack, Harry Potter & LotR soundrack, anything by John Williams..... (winks and chuckles)
Wolf72 You ain't just whistlin dixie! ... and I'm not reccomending that. (winks)
Baastet (to Wolf72) It's typo gremlins, I tell yah...
Wolf72 Yup, John Williams is all good. (smiles)
Baastet Stargate has a great soundtrack.
Mark_CMG Okie doke. Let's move on to our second half agenda tonight. Let's collectively develop a short scenario...
(I'll be posting the second half in the comings days, including the pieces that were brain-stormed to develop the scenario. Hopefully, before the next session on Monday November 4th at 7pm, I'll have a revised copy of the scenario that can be used by anyone who wishes to use it. - MAC CMG)
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