July Rules Update DMG: Errata needed?

Jhaelen

First Post
TBH, the only piece of the rules update that currently interests me was the new 'damage by level' chart and the accompanying 'monster statistics by role'.

So, I immediately dug in and analysed the changes:

1) Damage By Level:
The table is now very clean and the math obvious:
Single Target damage on average is always (level + 4). Nice!
I also like that dice expressions only go up to 4 dice.
This also means that damage should be adjusted by +/-1 per level when adjusting monster levels (rather than by +/- 0.5).
Everything else follows from there:
- Multi-target damage is simply 25% less.
- Brutes will get 25% more, and limited expressions are 25-50% more.
- Minions aren't mentioned, but using the DMG2 guidelines, probably should use 50% of the new average damage.
- Lurkers aren't mentioned, which is odd but confirms my suspicions after analysing the MM3 Lurkers:
Lurkers no longer do high damage. Imho, that's a bad change. Lurkers are generally designed to only deal damage every other round. What's the point of using a lurker if that damage isn't noticable?

2) Monster statistics by role:
- The first row has a formatting error: Brute should say '-', soldier '+2', and lurker '+4'
- changes to attacks:
- Brute: +2 vs. all defenses - this change had already been mentioned by Greg Bilsland.
- Soldier: -2 vs. AC but not vs. other defenses. I believe this hasn't been mentioned before but was something I noticed when analysing MM3, however:
I believe the table is in error and the attack vs. other defenses should be reduced by 2, as well. Almost all MM3 soldiers have reduced attack values vs. every defense. Interestingly many MM3 soldiers have a +2 bonus to immediate and opportunity attacks.
- Controller: -1 vs. other defenses. This change might make sense in an attempt to streamline attack values overall. Looking over the MM3 there are quite a few controllers that still have a higher to hit chance for _some_ of their attacks. So, maybe the footnote for the artillery should be applied to controllers, too.
- Artillery: -2 vs. all defenses, but because of the footnote, it's really only the melee attacks that are reduced.

To sum it up:
- Lurker damage needs to be increased by 25%
- Soldier attack vs. other defenses should be +3
- Controller attack vs. other defenses should get a footnote
 

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Aegeri

First Post
Minions aren't mentioned, but using the DMG2 guidelines, probably should use 50% of the new average damage.

Minion damage hasn't changed, they still use the DMG2 table as far as I know.

Soldier: -2 vs. AC but not vs. other defenses. I believe this hasn't been mentioned before but was something I noticed when analysing MM3, however:
I believe the table is in error and the attack vs. other defenses should be reduced by 2, as well.

That is confirmed to be an error.

Greg Bilsland said:
Yes, it is a typo; RT @loganbonner The update has level + 5 for the soldier's attacks vs. AC or other defenses. Typo?

It also appears there is more general "wiggle" room to reduce attacks up and down as the DM wants. There are a few brutes that still use +3 or even +4 to AC in MM3 for example.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
Minion damage hasn't changed, they still use the DMG2 table as far as I know.
Hmm, but wouldn't that be too low, then?

Ah, good to know! Thanks for the confirmation :)

It also appears there is more general "wiggle" room to reduce attacks up and down as the DM wants. There are a few brutes that still use +3 or even +4 to AC in MM3 for example.
Yup, I noticed (just posted my observations in my other thread ;)). The questions is: Are all of the different attack bonuses intentional or are some of them in error?

I haven't checked them all (yet!) but in most cases the differences in attack bonuses seem plausible, so I'm cautiously optimistic ;)
 

Jhaelen

First Post
To sum it up:
- Lurker damage needs to be increased by 25%
- Soldier attack vs. other defenses should be +3
- Controller attack vs. other defenses should get a footnote
There's something else I forgot to mention:
There's a tiny hiccup in the 'Damage By Level' table in the 'Two or More Targets' column:
Average damage at level 25 is 25.5, and at level 26 it's 25. It's the only place where average damage goes down.

So level 26 should read '4d6+12'.
 
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keterys

First Post
Lurkers do more damage if you count them as using Limited attacks... which they generally should count as using.

And yeah, I've advocated +/-1 damage per level for a long time :) Nice to see it backed up.
 



SabreCat

First Post
Has anyone worked out elegant damage expressions for the +25% and +50% suggestions? I'd guess for d8s you upgrade to d10s and d12s, respectively, as well as apply the modifier to the static bonus, but I'm not as sure what to do with the d6 expressions.

EDIT: Well, 4d(any) is easy, as is +50% on 2d(any)... still chewing on the rest ^.^
 
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SabreCat

First Post
Work in progress, including Jhaelen's level 26 fix: (never mind)

Unfortunately the most difficult expressions to work with are right at the start of the paragon tier, which is where my current campaign is... ^.^;

Removing the hyperlink since Jhaelen's table later in the thread has it complete. I'll repost if I put anything else together.
 
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