July Rules Update DMG: Errata needed? - Page 2


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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gort
    Hiccup :eng101:
    Thanks, fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by keterys
    Lurkers do more damage if you count them as using Limited attacks... which they generally should count as using.
    Exactly! That's why I'm suggesting a comment needs to be added to the Rules Update. Just like Brutes, their damage needs to be increased.

    I've not fully analyzed the MM3 Lurkers yet, but from noting down all damage expressions I came away with the impression that their damage is too low. It could be misleading because they're all accompanied by nasty conditions, but I don't think so.
    Quote Originally Posted by SabreCat View Post
    Has anyone worked out elegant damage expressions for the +25% and +50% suggestions?
    I'm working on it

    Edit: I've attached the (average) 'damage by level' table I'm using as a basis for the new damage expressions table. Since the minion damage values are fixed, they are usable right away. I've also decided to expand it to level 40 - because I can

    - std avg is identical to level + 8 and corresponds to the 'Single Target' column
    - std low is std avg - 25% and corresponds to the 'Two or more Targets' column
    - std high is std avg +25% and to be used for Brutes (and Lurkers), and encounter or recharge powers of different monster roles
    - ltd high is std avg +50% and to be used for Brute (and Lurker) encounter or recharge powers

    The minion damage is simply 50% of the corresponding std damage columns (rounded down).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails July2010Update_Average_Damage_by_Level.PNG  
    Last edited by Jhaelen; Thursday, 8th July, 2010 at 12:26 AM. Reason: Uploaded table & updated minion damage
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  • #12
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    And here's the first version with damage expressions, using up to 5 d6 or d8. Whenever I've had to choose whether to increase average damage by +0.5 or -0.5, I've picked the lower damage expression.

    I'm going to create another version for my own games, though, redoing the damage expressions from the July update, since I'd like it to use the other dice, too, and taking levels above 30 into account.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails July2010Update_Damage_by_Level.PNG  
    Last edited by Jhaelen; Thursday, 8th July, 2010 at 01:30 AM.
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  • #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jhaelen View Post
    Exactly! That's why I'm suggesting a comment needs to be added to the Rules Update. Just like Brutes, their damage needs to be increased.
    Except, their basic and at-will type attacks don't necessarily need to be. Their lurking mechanism should count as a Limited attack that gives +25% to +50% damage as appropriate, which should give them the damage they need.

    - std avg is identical to level + 8 and corresponds to the 'Single Target' column
    - std low is std avg - 25% and corresponds to the 'Two or more Targets' column
    - std high is std avg +25% and to be used for Brutes (and Lurkers), and encounter or recharge powers of different monster roles
    - ltd high is std avg +50% and to be used for Brute (and Lurker) encounter or recharge powers

    The minion damage is simply 50% of the corresponding std damage columns (rounded down).
    This, really is the important part. I don't think it's really necessary to have dice listings if you know the average damage - or, at least, you might as well list dice that give you exactly the average damage. It's probably simpler to just say:

    Multiple targets: Shift 1 column lower
    Brute: Shift 1 column higher
    Recharge/Encounter or Easy Lurking Mechanic: Shift 1 column higher
    Difficult Lurking Mechanic: Shift 2 columns higher

    Part of me dislikes that there's no distinction between recharge 456 and encounter, in theory, or that multiple recharge/encounter powers (see Duergar Theurges for example) don't really register in the system... but hey, that's why it's an art not a science

  • #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by keterys View Post
    This, really is the important part. I don't think it's really necessary to have dice listings if you know the average damage
    Agreed. What I love about the new damage progression is that I just need to remember a single number: '8'. Add the monster's level, maybe add/substract 25% (or 50%), half it for minions. That's it. You no longer even need the table if you're one of those people who can do quick calculations.

    Dice expressions are really just a convenience. The only things varying them does is: change the minimum and maximum damage. The latter is somewhat important for crits. In theory dice expressions also define the degree of swinginess, but that's largely irrelevant, once you start rolling more than 3 or 4 dice.
    Quote Originally Posted by keterys View Post
    Part of me dislikes that there's no distinction between recharge 456 and encounter, in theory, or that multiple recharge/encounter powers (see Duergar Theurges for example) don't really register in the system... but hey, that's why it's an art not a science
    Yup, I've been thinking about this, as well. I tried to approach it with the question:

    [off-topic]
    How many rounds does (or should!) a combat take on average?

    I've started with a relatively low number: 6 rounds. That's the number of rounds I'd like a combat to take. Interestingly, after investigating an iconic sample party (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard, ranger) average damage output would be sufficient to achieve this at every level (assuming 4 encounters per day)! In reality combat can take longer for a variety of reasons, mostly, having to deal with conditions and being prevented from effectively using their powers.

    Round six might also be a good point to investigate the current situation and decide which side seems to have the upper hand. Maybe it would make sense for one side to retreat, surrender, or flee.

    Anyway, using that number, an attack that is usable once per encounter becomes identical to recharge 6 and an ability that recharges when bloodied becomes identical to recharge 5,6. This leaves recharge 4,5,6, attacks that can recharge multiple times depending on circumstances, and all of the 'combo' attacks that have a requirement attached (very common for lurkers).
    For the former two it makes sense to use limited damage expressions, but the third isn't really represented by a column.

    Elite and minion monsters work quite well with these assumptions, but solos present their own challenges. For them the comparison to five standard monsters breaks down pretty soon.[/off-topic]
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    Quote Originally Posted by keterys View Post
    This, really is the important part. I don't think it's really necessary to have dice listings if you know the average damage - or, at least, you might as well list dice that give you exactly the average damage.
    It's not that difficult to work out with the new values, but I've written down some easy to remember formulas for average monster damage. I find them rather useful:

    - Low (Area): 6 + 0.75*Level
    - Medium: 8 + Level
    - High (Brute/Limited): 10 +1.25*Level
    - Very High (Limited): 12+1.5*Level

    Minion Damage
    - Low: 3 + (Level -1)/3
    - Medium: 3 + (Level -1)/3 + (1* Tier)
    - High: 3 + (Level -1)/3 + (2* Tier)

    They are discussed in more detail here and here.
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    Have you considered adding Encounter/Limited Powers for Brutes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack99 View Post
    Have you considered adding Encounter/Limited Powers for Brutes?
    I think that's what the +50% damage column is for (ltd high on my table). Or are you referring to something else?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jhaelen View Post
    I think that's what the +50% damage column is for (ltd high on my table). Or are you referring to something else?
    Interesting. It could very well be. Somehow, I thought that the 25%-50% variable was just that, a variable for powers, with recharge 4 powers being more towards the 25% and encounter powers being more towards the 50% - since there is a significant difference in how many times they can be used in a combat, especially if its a solo who has it. This made me believe that I would have to make separate calculation for brute (+ lurker) damage, ie +56 and +87% respectively.

    Your way makes things a lot simpler though.

    Thanks for making that table btw.

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    Thanks much for the table, Jhaelan! I'm going to run that off and stick it into my DMG, I think.

    If you do create a table with damage expressions above 30, I'd like to see it. It seems like something of an oversight that the DMG table doesn't go that high.

    EDIT: Nitpick - you didn't include your fix for level 26. Average damage goes down from 25.5 to 25 from 25th to 26th level on the standard-low progression.
    Last edited by SabreCat; Thursday, 8th July, 2010 at 05:21 PM.

  • #20
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    I've done up Jhaelen's tables in spreadsheet format here: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=COvH8tIH

    The average damage for the expressions can be found in hidden columns.

    Let me know if there are any data entry errors...

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