D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 smart, tricky fighter build help please

I could be talked out of being a Drow.

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be a goliath. or a feral goliath you'll have the same level adjustment as the drow but i think it's better for a tank character than the drow.

parinho7 said:

be a goliath. or a feral goliath you'll have the same level adjustment as the drow but i think it's better for a tank character than the drow.

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He can't use those books.

I think Human or Dwarf are probably your best racial choices (not a shocker) if you're not doing Rogue. If you're doing Rogue, I like the Forest Gnome from the Monster Manual.

Reason I make the distinction is because in a core only game, it's VERY hard for a small race to do decent damage as a warrior class. With sneak attack damage, the smaller weapons don't matter as much, though.

EDIT: What are your other party members? To do a melee rogue in core, you NEED a flanking partner. If not a player, then at the very least summoned allies from a spellcaster.

The other classes in the party:

Cleric
Wizard planning on Necromancy specialist
Rogue


Really appreciate all the help everyone.

I would go for Human Fighter. If you need to tank, you need someone that can take the tank role. If you want to do a lot of tricky maneuvers, you need a lot of feats. This is what human fighters do -- it is their Thing. If you run out of cool feats you want to take, then you can always multiclass out of it (as you can with half-elf or dwarf). If you are drow, you take an LA hit, and an XP hit if you are not careful with your multi-classing. Plus humans get more skill points, which doesn't hurt.

I would say forget about the Blackguard stuff and just be ye olde LE honourable but brutal human fighter. Make sure you have at least 13 or 13 in int and dex for better access to feats. Dump charisma.

str 17 dex 14 con 14 int 13 wis 10 cha 6 (oddly, the order you presented the stats). Boost strength every chance you can get unless you see a feat you love with a high dex requirement, in which case boost dex.

You can now take options on the Power Attack tree, the Dodge tree and the Combat Expertise Tree. These trees have a lot of cool maneuvers. You might also look at the Improved Unarmed Strike tree, for Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, etc.

Do not recommend the Improved Unarmed Strike tree. Not very useful overall. Power attack tree and Combat Expertise tree better.

Oh, there is a Rogue already...

I recommend standard Dwarf "tank" fighter. Except, if you don't mind losing the shield (get a +1 animated heavy shield*, though) I think a two handed weapon (spending a feat on Spiked Chain is best) with reach is the best bet. Go for Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip and Improved Disarm. Unless the rogue's doing archery, he'll probably be relying on you to flank with, so try to coordinate with him, and take feats to make you as annoying as hell to enemies that try to ignore you and kill the more squishy sneak attacking PC. If you don't want to start out with the spiked chain trip machine routine at level 1 (it is rather expensive in feats and gold), starting at level 1 with a wooden heavy shield, dwarven waraxe, and the heaviest armor you can afford is a solid way to go until you can transition to your new tactics.

I agree with Particle Man's ability score placements. If you are to multiclass later on, consider dipping Rogue, actually. Not just because you anted a tricky fighter, but if you are often flanking with the rogue, it can help that out a lot. You get some sneak attack for yourself, Evasion never hurts, Uncanny Dodge if you actually go to Rogue 4...and the most useful thing of all: Tumble. Any level you take as a Rogue, dump every skill point you possibly can into tumble, max it out. While armor check penalties will hurt, note that as a dwarf you can tumble even in full plate because the armor's not actually reducing your speed. Tumble is a great skill to have in general, especially to slip past the guard of big enemies with longer reach than you. The main purpose here, though, would be to make it easier to position yourself with the rogue to give him flanking. Other than possibly some rogue later on if you think it would help the party, stick with Fighter. If you don't want Rogue and you're running out of feats to take, a Barbarian dip is never horrible.

Feats you should aim for:
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Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Spiked Chain] (If you don't want to spend a feat, consider Guisarme + Spiked Gauntlet, but Spiked Chain is totally worth the feat)
Combat Expertise (for Trip and Disarm, but could also help tanking when needed)
Improved Trip
Improved Disarm
Power Attack (none of the feats after it, though. Cleave is a trap and Improved Bull Rush is only useful if you have lots of melee allies to give AoOs to, and maybe very situationally useful otherwise. Sunder destroys treasure. Overrun I've never found useful)
Combat Reflexes
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Feats that are ok, but less useful:
[sblock]Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Improved Critical
Dodge (sucks, but required for Mobility)
Mobility (pretty sucky, useful to maneuver for the Rogue, required for Spring Attack)
Spring Attack (only reason this isn't in the other list is the pre-req feats)
Iron Will (nothing worse than the party meat shield getting mentally dominated)
Improved Initiative (going first is always nice, but it's more useful to Rogues and casters than you)
Improved Grapple (very nice feat, but requires Improved Unarmed Strike...ick)
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If you're really overloading on feats still, getting some ranged ones to contribute when you can't reach the enemy to melee is ok for added versatility. Otherwise, getting a good composite bow with your strength rating, or even a cheap sling (range increment 50, can be fired one handed, and adds strength to damage, all for peanuts in coins, great poor man's weapon) should be sufficient.

Why you should be a Dwarf:
[sblock]+2 Con. You're the tank, right?
+2 saves on poison and spells is seriously worth more than a feat all on its own
Stability means if you fail to trip someone, they're less likely to trip you in response
Great free proficiency with the waraxe until you step up to spiked chain
Favored Class Fighter. Makes Dwarf automatically more useful than all but Human and Half-elf on its own.
Extra combat bonuses on Giants, orcs, and goblinoids, fairly common enemies.
Darkvision is a rare and wonderful benefit, and costs something like 12,000 gp to get with magic items (Goggles of Night)
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*After you've already gotten your armor's enhancement bonus up to +2, a Ring of Protection +1 or +2, a Dusty Rose Iuon Stone (+1 Insight to AC), Dexterity +2 item, and possibly Natural Armor +1 if you can get it in the bracers slot so it doesn't compete with Amulet of Constitution +2 for the neck slot. These items all boost your AC for cheaper, so get them first (more efficient that way). Of course, you'll also want magic weapon, other ability score boosters, cloak of resistance, etc... So don't expect to be getting the animated shield until level 10+.

Dwarves can get into Dwarven Defender. It's not a great prestige class, but it's better than straight fighter since you really do run out of worthwile feats in Core.

Dandu said:

Do not recommend the Improved Unarmed Strike tree. Not very useful overall. Power attack tree and Combat Expertise tree better.

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I have seen a fighter use Improved Grapple to good effect vs. a Hag. Situational, but useful.

Dwarf is a good solid choice. Humans get you feats faster. Half-Orc is good if you don't multiclass (you get strength) but since you want a tricky fighter I wouldn't recommend it.

I don't think Cleave is a trap, especially at low levels. Great Cleave can be a trap, but Cleave gives you a bonus attack when you drop someone. That ain't bad, if you are not Whirlwind Attacking at the time. Improved Bull Rush is situational, but if you have enough feats, you can spend a few on situational maneuvers.

So, taking into account feats others don't like, and going with dwarf, here is a sample Dwarven Fighter. This is not the uber-power build (that would be cleric, druid or wizard) but still pretty fun and maneuvery, while focusing on just being good with your weapon at high levels:

Dwarf Fighter

1 Combat Expertise
1F Improved Trip (note you should get a weapon that you can trip with)
2F Improved Disarm (some weapons give you a bonus to disarms)
3 Dodge
4F Mobility (gain 4 AC while setting your rogue buddy up for the flank)
6 Spring Attack (this one requires you to wear medium or light or no armor to work, but it is also a prerequisite for Whirlwind Attack even if you never Spring Attack)
6F Whirlwind Attack (good when you are surrounded by a mob of lesser beings)
8F Power Attack (helps vs. high DR creatures if you don't have the right DR-beater)
9 Improved Bull Rush
10F Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
12 Iron Will
12F Quickdraw (this is good for throwing weapons like Javelins)
14F Combat Reflexes (this is fun with reach weapons)
15 Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
16F Weapon Specialization
18 Greater Weapon Focus
18F Greater Weapon Specialization
20 Improved Critical (Spiked Chain)

Other feats that I like: Cleave, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Improved Grapple, Great Fortitude. If you like all the above feats and want one more from this list, go Human instead of Dwarf.

Leadership can be fun too, but it depends on the campaign and on your DM.

Another option is to give yourself some aptitude with ranged weapons too: the feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Rapid Shot and Shot on the Run could replace the last 5 feats from levels 15-20. Then if you can't reach your foe and he won't come to you, you can still have some fun.

[Edit: If you do multi-class with rogue, then in addition to the Tumble skill I would recommend the Bluff skill along with the Improved Feint feat - feinting basically can make your opponent lose their dex bonus to AC, making them easier to hit next time and also allowing for sneak attack damage even if you are not flanking at the time].

Maybe we should look at this another way. Look at the section in the book on combat and after it talks about attacks, damage, healing, etc., it gets into special combat maneuvers. See if there are any in particular that strike you as something you want your character to be able to do, and do well. If so, there are probably feats that will help you. If not, then don't worry about buying feats for it. That can determine how many levels of fighter would be good for you.

I'd start off with 4 levels in Barbarian.

Excellent write-ups on those builds! This is coming along very different from my original plan. I will show you all the end result, though we can tweak that too until the campaign starts.

Dwarf - Fighter - CE

Human is tempting.

Now, wanted to explore the Barbarian for the first 4 levels.

Then you would go to Fighter from there or Rogue?