D&D 3E/3.5 3.5- Multiple shots with a bow?

StreamOfTheSky said:

Whirling Frenzy's extra attack and Rapid Shot would be a -4 to hit, unless you grab Improved Rapid Shot.

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Yeah I know =D

With improved rapid shot and the whirling frenzy variant you have 3 attacks at your bab-2, then whatever iterative attacks you have (each at -2)

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I do not see anything (RAW does not make any mention of similar situations that could be used to compare) that would indicate that just because it fires energy it would not benefit from a size increase. (A bigger energy blast would be more damaging, no?)

You do make good points though, a splitting longbow under the effects you mentioned would be shooting 6d6+2x str bonus+2x enhancement bonus+2x arrow enhancement modifiers (i think? not sure about how it affects enchanted arrows, i don't have my champions of ruin book with me) per attack. Pretty solid either way. Certainly enough to keep up with all but the most optimized melee combatants.

If you can pick up weapon focus, specialization, and ranged weapon mastery that would be a solid +3/hit and +4dmg (+8dmg after splitting), and it only requires 4 fighter levels and +8 bab. If you can get access to it (aka you have an extra feat) and intend to go the oversized bow route, a composite greatbow starts doing significantly more damage per shot than a longbow if you have multiple size increases. (With 2 size increases, it is effectively a free +6 damage per split attack, quite possibly worth a feat).

Heh, didn't notice you mentioning the feat, sorry.

The only thing I can compare the Energy Bow to is the Force enhancement from MIC, which for a +2 cost makes your projectiles force damage. But the damage is the same as the arrow would be. Which leads me to assume the energy bow does NOT work like that (also fairness: the Force property is extremely overpriced if the Energy Bow is allowed and benefits from bow size).

And an archer will never compare with a similarly optimized melee character for damage. You can do all of this stuff to get respectable damage, but anything you can do the melee guy can basically do just as well, and often better. If you have Whirling Frenzy, it's fair game for the melee Barb. Ditto Strong Arm Bracers, which for a 2H melee weapon will be a bigger damage boost (since those are mostly d10 and d12/2d6 base damage). If you're getting enlarged, so is he. Except he suffers a net -0 to attacks and actually gets to add his higher str to damage (and x1.5 at that). And if you have Splitting at level 12 or whenever the hell it's actually affordable, the melee barb's had Pounce since level 1. Melee guy also has Power Attack, Leap Attack, and maybe Shock Trooper. Just for an example...

I totally agree that the melee character has many things going in its favor, though it holds its own against a decently well made (but not super optimized) melee character.

Assuming the following:

Both have weapons 2 sizes too big, one uses a greatbow, the other uses a great sword.

2h barb 12 (whirling) /fighter 4
Base 20 str, +4 from level ups
Feats: (4 required)
Power attack, Lion totem, Weapon spec/focus

Weapon: Huge Flaming greatsword of collision

While Raging:
Attack +25/25/20/15/10
6d6 (Huge Greatsword) + 15 (str) + 2 spec + +1d6 flaming + 5 collision
Average 46.5 per hit
Ways to raise this: Too numerous to count, and you have two more free feats. (to use for shock trooper, combat brute, robillars gambit, etc)


Greatbow Fighter 4/Barb 12 (ferocity)
Base 18 str + 4 from level ups, 18 dex
Feats (6 required):
Prof: greatbow
WF, Spec, and RWM: Greatbow, (total +3/hit+4 dmg)
Rapid shot, Improved Rapid Shot

Weapon: Huge Splitting Composite Greatbow

When raging
Attack +27/27/22/17/12 (16+3 (feats)+1(weapon) + 7(dex while raging))
Damage:
8d8 (2x huge composite greatbow) +18 (2x str) + 2 (2x weapon enhancement) + 8 (2x feat bonuses)
Average 64 on a hit
Possible ways to raise it:
Magical arrows, +str items, further enchant the bow.

I realize, this is an extremely optimized archer vs a "normal" barbarian. But even if you have an optimized melee guy in your party, you shouldn't feel useless doing 36-92 damage per attack, with a good chance to hit. If all your attacks hit, you will do an average of 320 damage, not too shabby.

Basically the "splitting" attribute is the only thing that makes a viable archer possible. Without that it would be vastly inferior even to this somewhat average melee barbarian.

Cactot said:

Basically the "splitting" attribute is the only thing that makes a viable archer possible. Without that it would be vastly inferior even to this somewhat average melee barbarian.

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Define "viable." That's actually a pretty strong word to bandy about. So what if one unoptimized character can do more damage than another? It doesn't make all other characters not equal to that level of damage non-viable. Optimized characters can do a great deal more damage than other characters - but it still doesn't make non-optimized characters non-viable. Certainly not in all games.

Unless your only interest in the game, or the only point in the game is to do as much damage as possible the idea of what's "viable" encompasses a much wider lattitude than you might think. Maxing your lethality index is fun and all, but it is quite far from being the be-all/end-all of the game.

Agree completely with supporters of archery being "viable".

Also, to quote from the Tao of Optimization:

"H[FONT=&quot]aving 300 when you need 100 once
Is not optimal.
Having 100 whenever you need 100
Is."[/FONT]

Go home and don't bother us, Ubercharger fans. Let us just shoot our bows in peace (or rather, war, actually).