Assassin's Shroud & Stealth, hidden & invisibility

Kzach · Jul 26, 2010

So there's a feat, I forget the name, but it's entire purpose is to let an assassin put a shroud on the target without the target being aware of it.

This brings up all sorts of questions.

There's nothing in the shroud description to indicate it's an attack, so why would the target be aware of it? But then targets are 'aware' of marks as well.

So if they're aware of it, what does that entail for a stealthed, hidden or invisible assassin? Does that constitute an attack and therefore start the initiative? Does it make the assassin lose their invisibility or hidden status? Does it negate the possibility for a surprise round?

Aulirophile · Jul 26, 2010

Monsters and PCs are always aware of all effects from a given power, condition, etc., that is placed on them. That part of 4e is totally transparent on both sides, by RAW. Many people, including myself, play it that monsters and PCs are not aware of certain capabilities till they trip them. Like being punished by a Fighter's Combat Superiority. The feat is a specific exception to that rule, the monster doesn't know what the shroud does or that it is being shrouded.

The rest of your question is easily answerable by looking up the relevant rules. Hidden is only broken when you make an attack (or lose cover/concealment, but I digress). Shrouding isn't an attack. If you were hidden and shrouded the monster without the feat, it'd know it had been shrouded... but that's it. I'm sure it'd start making active perception checks (which are a minor action), to beat your stealth score, or run away. It is worth noting that invisible creatures have Total Concealment but are not hidden (which is specifically defined as "Enemies don't know which square you occupy"). If you shrouded a monster while only being only invisible, he'd know exactly what square you were in, he'd just have a -5 to hit you.

Now if you had the feat, nothing would be revealed. Sneak up, Shroud to four, then attack (with a surprise round no less) and roll initiative. Or Shroud up during the part where you try to negotiate instead of stab.

It is really worth re-iterating this: If you look up Invisible and Total Concealment, you'll notice they are basically identical. An Invisible Creature has Total Concealment. This allows you the ability to roll a Stealth Check to become Hidden, it does not automatically make you Hidden. Hidden is the only condition in 4e that makes what square you are in Not Known. Otherwise all combatants at all times know who is occupying what square, even if they are around a corner.

keterys · Jul 27, 2010

Without the feat, shroud likely has a physical and/or mentally 'visible' effect, like a coldness of the skin, shadows gathering up around you. Heartbeat slowing down and sharp spike of paranoia.

So, the creature might not be able to see the assassin, but they might start actively looking and/or swinging their weapons about. Certainly it'd be cause to roll initiative and negate the ability to get a surprise round.

RigaMortus2 · Jul 27, 2010

Aulirophile said:
Many people, including myself, play it that monsters and PCs are not aware of certain capabilities till they trip them. Like being punished by a Fighter's Combat Superiority.

A monster wouldn't normally know about the Fighter's Combat Superiority anyway, or do you mean Combat Challenge? In either case, monsters you mark wouldn't be aware of the free attack the Fighter would get if they shift away. All they would be aware of is the mark, because that is all they are being affected by.

fuzzlewump · Jul 28, 2010

RigaMortus2 said:
A monster wouldn't normally know about the Fighter's Combat Superiority anyway, or do you mean Combat Challenge? In either case, monsters you mark wouldn't be aware of the free attack the Fighter would get if they shift away. All they would be aware of is the mark, because that is all they are being affected by.

That makes the Swordmage/Paladin mark, which is all part of one effect, seem a lot worse than the fighter mark, if you're supposed to play the monsters as not knowing about combat challenge until they see it.

MrMyth · Jul 28, 2010

fuzzlewump said:
That makes the Swordmage/Paladin mark, which is all part of one effect, seem a lot worse than the fighter mark, if you're supposed to play the monsters as not knowing about combat challenge until they see it.

Sorta. A monster knows they are marked, which basically represents the fighter getting in their face and trying to keep them from getting to his allies. I tend to assume that most monsters of a decent Int are aware that if you let your guard down against someone marking you, odds are high they might do something to punish you.

That said, they don't know exactly what - they don't know a Warden will maybe drag them back with roots, or a Fighter will hit them in the face. But they can usually guess that something bad will happen.

On the other hand, outright magical marks tend to reveal exactly how they work (at least, by the RAW) - and that doesn't seem too unreasonable. They also tend to have automatic effects, rather than requiring an attack roll to do anything. There are differences enough that one more doesn't, I think, tip the balance too far in either direction.