Did magic-users use weapons more often in older editions?

grodog · Aug 16, 2010

Bullgrit said:
Magic-users of BD&D and AD&D would use weapons, (especially missile weapons), fairly often during an adventure. They might go several combats never casting a spell, and just throw daggers or darts from the party center, or bash a lone goblin with their staff when forced into melee. [snip]

What has been your experience in this?

My six-year-old son Ethan was playing in my version of Castle Greyhawk this weekend, and both he and Henry (his two-year-old brother) ran Henry's MU PC "Lolly Pop" during combat. Lolly Pop hit four times in 12 thrown darts, which is pretty good for a level 1 MU, and his contributions to the combat were pretty substantial (especially since his only offensive spell, charm person, may or may not have worked on the bugbears they were battling).

I've definitely seen MUs battle sans spells in many other 1e campaigns. In 3.x, I've seen Wizards also leverage missile weapons in particular, but not as frequently as 1e MUs would (MUs in 1e don't gain bonus spells for high stats, which makes a pretty big difference in their spellcasting abilities until they're ~5th level or so IME).

pawsplay · Aug 16, 2010

In my experience, weapon use would happen infrequently until about the point at which the wizard could cast two fireballs or two lightning bolts, at which point it would be largely obsolesced.

the Jester · Aug 16, 2010

I mostly agree with Bullgrit, but with a caveat.

I've seen several pcs, one of whom was a wizard, who chose weapons for flavor reasons: the cleric with a bow and the wizard with a gun (I have guns imc but they are quite rare). In this case, the wizard (4e) used the weapon a lot more than you'd expect, even though it was obviously way suboptimal compared to his spells.

radmod · Aug 16, 2010

I use to think D&D meant "daggers and darts" (OK, not really).

In my experience, as it seems a lot of people, we used daggers and darts a lot.
We also tended to multi-class so as to use 'real' weapons.
We also tended to have an obligatory free wand of magic missiles.

Lanefan · Aug 16, 2010

At very low levels, yes - the wizard types often wade in with weapons; both because they can and because they often have to in order to prop up the front line.

Once they hit about 5th or so this tends to stop almost completely, for two reasons:
1) They've now got flash-bang spells and can hurt more things at range.
2) Their front line has also advanced in level and can now do a much better job of holding off whatever's attacking.

That said, my 3e Illusionist pulled out her crossbow on a regular basis even at 10th-11th level - scary thing is, she almost never missed with it!

Lanefan

Man in the Funny Hat · Aug 16, 2010

My own experience has been that wizards in 1E/2E actually used weapons less often than their 3E counterparts. lack of a proper ranged weapon and razor-thin survivability meant their use of weapons was more-often limited quite strictly to self-defense. After casting all their spells they would seek to do anything EXCEPT use a weapon. Possible exception would be at 1st or 2nd level with a Sleep spell, after which casting they might pull a dagger and cut as many sleeping throats as they could reach without exposing themselves to melee. After rising a few levels they might start to use a few scrolls, magic items or the like but otherwise would still continue to keep out of melee.

3E on the other hand gave wizards a useful missile weapon - crossbow. Something with RANGE where they could shoot, miss a lot, and not actually draw unwanted attention from an enemy who might need to move too far to get at them and thus continue to attack the fighters and others who present a more immediate and powerful threat. Wizards were thus given better tactical opportunity to resort to a weapon. Obviously they still weren't much more survivable in melee than they were in older editions so being able to stand off a good distance and shoot becomes a more viable option than throwing darts or daggers within a mere 30' or so. Even though they had more spells to cast at low levels, having that crossbow made a big difference IME.

Henry · Aug 17, 2010

Our magic-users used daggers, darts, flaming oil, poison when they could get their hands on it -- every dirty trick you could think of. In truth, they weren't like wizards, more like mafiosos when they ran out of bullets. If the magic-users could've found a way to give you cement shoes and dump you in an ocean to get rid of you, they would've done it.

I even knew some mages who had the fighter carry an extra suit of armor, and when he ran out of spells for the day, he'd suit up in armor and carry a staff so he could be of more use during the adventure. My groups never did it because the DMs were sticklers for following the letter of the game - no armor meant NO ARMOR. Our mages cowering like peasants who couldn't wield spears was what bred the "dirty scoundrel" mentality who always looked for an unfair disadvantage even chance they got.

When they got more spells, they became more like stereotypical wizards.

Ariosto · Aug 17, 2010

By the Original set -- and some Basic -- rules, what mundane weaponry one uses in a melee makes no difference except that a two-handed weapon deprives one of use of a shield (which makes the previously and subsequently awesome two-handed sword a foolish choice).

In that situation, it is really the m-u's typically poor a.c. and h.p. that suffice to dissuade from much acting like a fighter. Daggers tend to have piss poor range as well, even if the DM does not require specially balanced (and especially expensive) throwing knives.

Just about the best spell you can have early in old D&D is charm person. It gets weakened in Supplement I, and more in AD&D, but the basic effect is that you get a body guard. Work on it, and you can command several tough creatures of 2nd or 3rd level even when you are still a 1st-level "squishy".

Real henchmen are better in the long run, but this is definitely one spell that keeps on giving (unlike one-shots such as sleep and magic missile). Just have a Plan B in case the charm gets dispelled or wears off.

Dannyalcatraz · Aug 17, 2010

Magic-users of BD&D and AD&D would use weapons, (especially missile weapons), fairly often during an adventure. They might go several combats never casting a spell, and just throw daggers or darts from the party center, or bash a lone goblin with their staff when forced into melee.

It depends upon the player.

In my very first D&D game ever, way back in 1977, the guy playing the mage wound up using his staff, but not until the last few encounters before his PC and mine (a human 2hd sword-wielding fighter) were engaged in the final battle of the game. He had run out of all spells except a Magic Missile, which he used in the final battle's opening salvo...vs a Purple Worm.

A guy I've been playing with since the mid-1980s mixed the use of his spells and his weapons across editions 1Ed-3.5Ed in order to preserve his spells for when he actually needed them. The result was that he almost never ran out of spells.

I've also seen spellcasters who don't even bother carrying a weapon unless its a magical staff of some kind.

Personally, I also mix my use of weapons & spells, and have even designed full-caster based PCs whose actions defaulted to using weapons and didn't use spells until absolutely necessary- often not even in combat. One gnome in particular emphasized alchemical grenade attacks followed by short-sword attacks before using spells, and Adragon Van Basten, the "Mage-Brute" was a standard sorcerer (with the Draconic Breath feat) who wore scale mail, used a maul and almost never cast a spell in combat (for a variety of reasons).

Holy Bovine · Aug 17, 2010

Joshua Randall said:
Back in the Basic/1eAD&D times I can remember stocking up on daggers and darts* and using them a lot.

* I vaguely recall that darts were pretty powerful for their cost. Yes?

I

Iirc you could throw 3 darts per round in AD&D 1E by raw. I may be misremembering though. I certainly do remember using darts, daggers and even a heavy crossbow (Militant Mage from 2E Wizard's Handbook I think) in older editions of D&D.

In 3E it was down to the occasional crossbow shot from the party wizard (never saw a sorcerer resort to a melee or missile weapon though) but far, far less than in 1E or 2E or even BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia.

In 4E I have never seen a wizard resort to a missile weapon of any kind but I have seen them use melee weapons on more than a few occasions (mostly OA but the occasional regular attack when they didn't want an OA on themselves).