Is the Redbox Rogue All Cocked Up?

OnlineDM · Aug 28, 2010

The red box has six cards that are labeled as "At Will Power" for the Rogue. Three are "Rogue Attack 1": Bump and Run, Deft Strike and Defensive Strike. The other three are "Rogue Utility": Acrobatic Maneuver, Nimble Positioning and Athletic Advance. The "Rogue Utiltiies" have no level associated with them, and they are Move Actions.

There are two rogue "builds" in the red box. If you choose Bump and Run as your first at-will, you later get Deft Strike, Nimble Positioning and Athletic Advance. If you choose Defensive Strike, you also get Deft Strike, Nimble Positioning and Acrobatic Maneuver.

The red box rogue therefore gets two level 1 at-will attack powers and two level-less at-will utility powers that are move actions. It still gets Sneak Attack, and it gets Backstab as an encounter power.

Jools · Aug 29, 2010

Well I guess that verifies it then - unless there's been some sort of bizarre miscommunication from Wizards - the Rogue/Thief in the red box is not the one from the later Essentials books.

Looking at other threads there seem to be a multitude of other mistakes and inconsistencies in the 1st edition of the red box too. Hopefully they'll fix them with a later reprint.

Tony Vargas · Aug 29, 2010

The Red Box is nothing if not a shrinkwrapped mega-dose of nostalgia. Those of us who started with Basic D&D (Blue box or later Red), and then went on to AD&D, do have memories of the jarring differences between Basic and Advanced D&D. I don't know, maybe those are fond, nostalgic memories for the lapsed gamers out there, and they'd be dissapointed if the boxed set wasn't substantially different from the rest of the game in inexplicable ways.

DonAdam · Aug 29, 2010

To add to the confusion, the Red Box rogue's powers do fixed damage dice rather than [W]. And they get Weapon Finesse at second level instead of first (unlike the chart we've seen for the thief).

Thalionalfirin · Aug 29, 2010

I read through it very quickly last night and what struck me was that I don't recall seeing a striker mechanic for the rogue in the solo adventure. Maybe it didn't come up because he was battling a minion, but I don't remember a reference to sneak attack or combat advantage.

Did I just miss it somewhere?

OnlineDM · Aug 29, 2010

First, I'm sure that the Rogue doesn't get [W] in his damage rolls because that's another layer of complexity to add (a variable within a variable), and the Red Box is trying to keep things simple. You don't get a choice of weapon - you get a dagger, which deals d4 plus your Dex mod. If you change weapons later, that's outside the scope of the solo adventure (and probably outside the scope of the Red Box).

Second, Sneak Attack doesn't show up when dealing with the first minion in the solo adventure, again because of simplicity. Also, it doesn't matter - it's a minion! Sneak Attack is handled later, in section 86, before the battle at the goblin lair.

Note that while it is mentioned in the Sneak Attack sentence, Combat Advantage doesn't seem to be defined anywhere in the book - I imagine that this will confuse truly new players. It is explained on page 5 of the DM book from the Red Box, but that doesn't help the poor kid going through the solo adventure.

lvl20dm · Aug 29, 2010

I think that the red box is the outdated thing. It would have been printed long before the previews were put up. The rogue isn't the only thing that seems off, as others have noted. The fighter is adding Con mod to damage instead of Dex and a recent countdown article confirms that Dex is the correct stat.

This is a fun product, but I'm thinking Fallen Lands and the Rules Compendium will be picked by any new player shortly after getting the Red Box.

Reaper Steve · Aug 30, 2010

Cross-posted from my entry in the stickied Red Box errata thread:

Was that ever verified? Couldn't it just be that the Essentials preview was out of date and the stuff in the Red Box is correct and will also be reflected in Heroes of the Fallen Land?

That wouldn't be the first outdated preview. In fact, I think that very same preview references Power Strike, which is clearly a cut-and-paste error from a Fighter preview.

EDIT: Ok, I have the Red Box in hand, and downloaded the Game Day characters. The two Game Day rogues use the Tricks from the preview, which are not in the Red Box. So, some potential outcomes are:
1) The Game Day characters could have been built with outdated info and HotFL will match the Red Box
2) HotFL could have Tricks as well as Red Box style powers
3) The Red Box could be outdated.

I'm coming around to #3--that the Red Box is outdated--because attack powers that grant movement in addition to your normal Move action is a fairly advanced concept.

nnms · Sep 1, 2010

Red Box Rogue picks one of two packages of abilities:

Strong & Athletic – gain Bump and Run, Deft Strike, Nimble Positional & Athletic Advantage
Acrobatic & Defensive – gain Defensive Strike, Deft Strike, Nimble Positioning & Acrobatic Maneuver

HoFL Rogue picks two "trick" movement powers from the following:

Acrobat's Trick
Ambush Trick
Escape Artist's Trick
Feinting Trick
Sneak's Trick
Tactical Trick
Thug's Trick
Tumbling Trick
Unbalancing Trick

Anyone have any thoughts on the best way to start with the Redbox and transition into HoFL without a jarring rebuild where the rogue loses a bunch of abilities by going from 4 at-wills down to 2?

JohnSnow · Sep 1, 2010

nnms said:
Red Box Rogue picks one of two packages of abilities:

Strong & Athletic – gain Bump and Run, Deft Strike, Nimble Positional & Athletic Advantage

Acrobatic & Defensive – gain Defensive Strike, Deft Strike, Nimble Positioning & Acrobatic Maneuver

HoFL Rogue picks two "trick" movement powers from the following:

Acrobat's Trick

Ambush Trick

Escape Artist's Trick

Feinting Trick

Sneak's Trick

Tactical Trick

Thug's Trick

Tumbling Trick

Unbalancing Trick

Anyone have any thoughts on the best way to start with the Redbox and transition into HoFL without a jarring rebuild where the rogue loses a bunch of abilities by going from 4 at-wills down to 2?

Making matters worse, the Red Box specifically refers you to "Heroes of the Fallen Lands for full details on the slayer fighter, the mage wizard, the thief rogue, and the warpriest cleric, which are the extended versions of the four classes presented in this product." (Starter Set Dungeon Master's Book, p. 39).

So, they can't even claim the Red Box is supposed to be a different build. One can only wonder why they published it with the wrong version of the rogue class. Seems like a pretty big mistake.

To which I'm sure someone will say: "Oh well, it's JUST a Starter Set! What were you expecting?"

I guess the answer should be "not much." Which is pretty much the problem with the last three or four "Starter Sets." They were incomplete teasers at their best, and incompatible at their worst. Sadly, the current Red Box is no different.