proposal: adopt LEB's rules on treasure and retirement

Diversity is good insofar as it doesn't punish players. You loose them, you loose your Living World. Slow pace is already a factor; adding frustration is not ideal.

My main concern, as it has always been, if fairness and balance. With no system in place to guarantee either, frustration ensues. I appreciate that DMs want leeway; I want to make sure this isn't at the cost of players.

renau1g said:

My suggestion for those who are quite a bit behind the expected wealth curve for their PC's would be to PM your DM for the game you're in and discuss it with him/her. Maybe I'm a Monty Haul DM, but I've always addressed any shortcomings in wealth for a PC in my adventure (Mal's Hadrak comes to mind) at the first opportunity

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Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this. I don't think it should be on the players' shoulders to initiate a potential conflict with a DM just to have balanced treasure. Besides that, it could easily appear rude or disrespectful to say "why am I so far behind in loots?" or "I don't like what you're giving me". No, I dislike putting the onus on the player to correct the DM - especially when something can be easily codified to take care of it.

stongod said:

I appreciate that DMs want leeway; I want to make sure this isn't at the cost of players.

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I completely agree.


Please don't think I'm trying to say "DMs are jerks" or something else that would imply such a thing as a "rogue DM". Nothing is further from the truth. Everyone on these boards tries hard and does a good job and is never intentionally jerky just to be a jerk. We have a good community and I like being a part of it.

What I am saying is that it is close to impossible for every DM to keep up with loot levels for every player in every game. I know it's close to impossible because there are instances where it isn't happening. This isn't because someone is a jerk, it's because it's too difficult and too time consuming and let's face it: this is our hobby, not our job. So let's make it easier on the DMs and better for the players and simpler for all.

Does this lose some level of control for the DMs? Yes. Is it much worse than having a wishlist anyway? I don't think so. I don't think the sky is falling.

stonegod said:

Diversity is good insofar as it doesn't punish players. You loose them, you loose your Living World. Slow pace is already a factor; adding frustration is not ideal.

My main concern, as it has always been, if fairness and balance. With no system in place to guarantee either, frustration ensues. I appreciate that DMs want leeway; I want to make sure this isn't at the cost of players.

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Of course, the flip side is that if you get frustrated DM's (because they feel ironbound to certain items for players) then you get a bunch of PC's in the tavern looking for adventure and then lose the Living World.

Again, just my opinion, but I feel 100% locked into giving the player the 1 item from their Wish List in the parcel system, which in the vast majority of cases has just 1 item/level on it. I would feel like a dick "going rogue" and not giving them the Frost sword, but rather a sunblade, or another item.

I had done a quick investigation for stonegod back in Feb. when he was interested in proposing a parcel system here. There were a few PC's behind the curve, a few at the expected one and a few ahead. 3 of the 5 behind the curve were in the same adventure where xp was awarded earlier and treasure was following for story purposes.

I might try and do something similar now, but not sure if I'll have the time.

True; we can't loose too many DMs either, of course. And, regarding Incarnation, he was behind going into that addy; the delay in treasure (and the two levels gained between) just exacerbated it.

Encouraging multiple items per wishlist slot (or a genera description) is a good idea and should be encoded somewhere. Making sure to communicate that wishlists are suggestions in the charter is also a good idea.

But we need a method to assist in balance. Stronger guidelines to DMs and using the inherent bonus model would likely address this.

So, if parcels are dead, I'd propose the following (maybe evilbob will put this in the first post as Alternative #n):
- Make clear in the charter that if players provide wishlists, they provide multiple alternatives or suggestions to assist DMs.
- Make clear in the charter that wishlists are suggestions, and DMs may choose to provide items that are more appropriate to their story.
- Provide guidance in the charter to DMs to help address PC item imbalance. I suggest something along the lines of "At the beginning of the adventure and whenever a PC joins or levels and when the adventure is ending, a DM should consult the PC-wealth guidelines of the DMG to ensure players are at the appropriate level."
- Adopt the Inherent Bonus system of the DMG2 (or the modified one in Dark Sun).

Just an update:

Here's a quick calculation I did of a group of 5th level and 6th level PCs.

I'd like to see some wording added to the Charter re: wish lists as well.

Edit: Kane is actually 7th level, not 6th so ignore him.

First thought: we have that many 5th and 6th level PCs?

Second thought: I wondered what was used for "expected wealth". Not that I think it's off; I was just curious.

The conclusion that I draw from that data is that I would certainly see how anyone playing in those games would have the perspective that characters are not falling behind in terms of wealth level.


I don't mind stonegod's additions (although as a DM I would prefer the far less work of a parcel system than all that ), but I'd hate to call parcels dead just yet. We've only had two judges vote so far.

Expected wealth is a n-1,n,n+1 and n-1 of gold for starting above 1st level. Not maybe 100% accurate, but I was in a rush.

It does seem like there is a larger discprepency at lower levels, as say in Chef's Request I have awarded the parcels from the DMG (or roughly thereabouts) including an n+3 or 4 item and stonegod didn't receive one (as it's roughly 4 per 5 levels). So his PC is way behind the others, but soon, like next encounter soon, it will be rectified.

Once again proof that the gods hate my PCs.

Yeah I sadly rolled randomly on the treasure distribution so it's not me

renau1g said:

Again, just my opinion, but I feel 100% locked into giving the player the 1 item from their Wish List in the parcel system, which in the vast majority of cases has just 1 item/level on it. I would feel like a dick "going rogue" and not giving them the Frost sword, but rather a sunblade, or another item.

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I can't give you exp, so I'm just going to say: /signed

I'm actually trying to figure out how to deal with this right now because the one item one of my players wants, I'm really not sure it makes sense to have appear, so I'm trying to decide what I'm going to do about that.