Monk Unarmed Strike

Gortle · Aug 28, 2010

I'm struggling to work out the correct way to play the monk, as the monk unarmed strike is a weapon not a power. It seems to get used as a melee basic attack but also with an implement in all monk attack powers. I'd like to hear how other people interpret these rules.

In the Monk paragon path Mountain Devotee , the Shattering Fists power says:

Your monk unarmed strike and stone fist flurry of blows both deal 2 extra damage.

Does this mean that the monk can inflict 2 extra damage with all his monk attack powers plus another 2 extra damage when his flurry of blows activates?

Is this damage cumulative with the feat Crashing Tempest Style?

While wielding a club, you gain a +2 bonus to damage dealt by your Flurry of Blows power.

So I'm thinking that a monk can wield an unarmed strike in his main hand and have a club in his off hand and gain the benefit of both.

Am I right?

Kaelkatar · Aug 28, 2010

The way I read it, the first ability is giving two bonuses:
+2 to unarmed strike damage.
+2 to stone first fury of blows damage.

The second is giving one bonus.
If you have a club equipped, +2 power bonus to fury of blows damage.

Now the first two will not stack, while it is counterintuitive, monk powers are not unarmed strikes. They are all implement attacks. If you make a basic attack with your unarmed strike (At +2 damage) and then trigger stone first fury of blows, you can indeed add the extra +2 to that as well.

The second feat does seem to work just fine with the first bonus, as the first gives +2 untyped and the second gives +2 power. Your best case scenario for bonuses is you hit with your fist for +2, and then as long as you are holding a club, you trigger stone first fury of blows at +4.

Gortle · Aug 28, 2010

But this is were I get confused. Monks are not normal. I'm looking at PHB3 p62-64. The rules clearly state Unarmed Strike is a weapon in the unarmed weapon group, it is not a power as you might think. They also state that all the monk weapons are implements for monks. All the monk attack powers are implement powers.

Joining the dots mean the monk can use unarmed strike with all his attack powers and gain this +2 bonus.

Kaelkatar said:
The way I read it, the first ability is giving two bonuses:
+2 to unarmed strike damage.
+2 to stone first fury of blows damage.

The second is giving one bonus.
If you have a club equipped, +2 power bonus to fury of blows damage.

Now the first two will not stack, while it is counterintuitive, monk powers are not unarmed strikes. They are all implement attacks.

The first two don't stack because they are applying to different powers. The second power activating when the first hits.

Stormtalon · Aug 28, 2010

Gizella said:
But this is were I get confused. Monks are not normal. I'm looking at PHB3 p62-64. The rules clearly state Unarmed Strike is a weapon in the unarmed weapon group, it is not a power as you might think. They also state that all the monk weapons are implements for monks. All the monk attack powers are implement powers.

Joining the dots mean the monk can use unarmed strike with all his attack powers and gain this +2 bonus.

Here's the catch -- if you look at the monk's powers, their damage expressions are always something like 1d10 + dex, or some other combination of specific dice & stat bonus. Being explicit dice expressions, the bonus to unarmed strike doesn't come into play. If instead, the damage were to be listed as 1[W] + dex, then at that point, yes the +2 to unarmed strike would be factored in.

nightwyrm · Aug 28, 2010

Stormtalon said:
Here's the catch -- if you look at the monk's powers, their damage expressions are always something like 1d10 + dex, or some other combination of specific dice & stat bonus. Being explicit dice expressions, the bonus to unarmed strike doesn't come into play. If instead, the damage were to be listed as 1[W] + dex, then at that point, yes the +2 to unarmed strike would be factored in.

The bonus to unarmed strike doesn't explicitly mention damage rolls. The comparison I'm think of is a sorc still gets his weapon focus (dagger) damage when he uses his dagger as an implement. This is of course assuming a monk can use his unarmed strike as an implement, which is debatable.

Monks just makes a mess of rules. The fact that its epic unarmed mastery feat is pretty much useless as written is just borked.

The Little Raven · Aug 28, 2010

nightwyrm said:
The bonus to unarmed strike doesn't explicitly mention damage rolls. The comparison I'm think of is a sorc still gets his weapon focus (dagger) damage when he uses his dagger as an implement. This is of course assuming a monk can use his unarmed strike as an implement, which is debatable.

No, it's not really debatable.

When you make a weapon attack such as a melee basic attack, you can use the monk unarmed strike, which is a weapon in the unarmed weapon group.

You can also use a weapon with which you’re proficient as an implement.

Being a weapon with which the monk is proficient means the monk unarmed strike can be used as an implement. It just offers no bonuses to such, thus the reason you would use a ki focus or a magic weapon.

Monks just makes a mess of rules. The fact that its epic unarmed mastery feat is pretty much useless as written is just borked.

It applies to OAs and basic melee attacks granted by other classes/powers/items. While it's not high on my list of priority monk feats, there are plenty of people who go for builds that charge/OA/MBA more often than others.

nightwyrm · Aug 28, 2010

So a mountain devotee monk can get his +2 damage if he uses his unarmed strike for his powers but then get no other bonuses?

Any idea why WotC went with such a convoluted system for the monk? Why not just make the monk a regular [W] class and have their fists be either enchantable weapons or get enhancement bonuses at regular intervals as a class feature?

The Little Raven · Aug 28, 2010

nightwyrm said:
So a mountain devotee monk can get his +2 damage if he uses his unarmed strike for his powers but then get no other bonuses?

I think it needs clarification, but my ruling on the matter would be that if you are using a ki focus (as opposed to a magic weapon), then you are using the unarmed strike as the delivery of those powers, and would gain the bonus.

However, by RAW, this is something that needs to be clarified.

Any idea why WotC went with such a convoluted system for the monk? Why not just make the monk a regular [W] class and havve their fists enchantable weapons as a class feature?

I'm not entirely sure. I figure it has to do with wanting to make the monk less a "warrior" and more of a "mystic." I was hoping the new build from Dragon was going to have Weapon powers, myself, but c'est la vie.

Gortle · Aug 29, 2010

The Little Raven said:
Being a weapon with which the monk is proficient means the monk unarmed strike can be used as an implement. It just offers no bonuses to such, thus the reason you would use a ki focus or a magic weapon.

It applies to OAs and basic melee attacks granted by other classes/powers/items. While it's not high on my list of priority monk feats, there are plenty of people who go for builds that charge/OA/MBA more often than others.

I disagree. The Unarmed Mastery feat applies to melee attacks with your monk unarmed strike. Almost all monk powers are melee attacks. Likewise they are implement powers not weapon powers. But unarmed strike is an implement. The PHB3 page 64 rules confirm this by saying all your monk attacks can involve the use of a weapon , whether it's your monks unarmed strike or a manufactured object. At a glance I can't see any monk powers that have the weapon keyword.

It seems to me that the rules for monks are odd. It needs an official clarification. They use Unarmed strike in multiple contexts. Are all these true?
Unarmed Strike is:

a weapon,
an implement,
part of an implement in combination with a ki focus,
a melee attack power.

ppaladin123 · Aug 29, 2010

Monk unarmed strike is a weapon.

Monks can use ki focuses or any weapon they are proficient with as an implement for implement powers.

For example, if I had a +2 magic longsword. I could make 1d8 + mod weapon attacks with it (charges, OAs, melee basi attacks granted by leaders), or use that +2 enhancement bonus on my implement attacks while holding the sword.

You have to choose to use magic weapon properties or ki focus properties on each implement attack when you have both. You can't use a mixture.

The problem is that monk unarmed strike cannot currently by enchanted. So, you could, if you really wanted to use the properties of the unarmed strike in your implement powers (19-20 crit range at epic, +2 damage bonus from the paragon path) but you'd have a +0 enhancement bonus and you'd basically be unable to hit anything. If you use a magic ki focus instead, you lose access to the monk unarmed strike properties.

It is an oversight in the rules that will hopefully be remedied in the October errata.

Monk Unarmed Strike

Gortle

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Kaelkatar

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Gortle

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Stormtalon

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nightwyrm

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The Little Raven

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