Hamlet's Hit Points?


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Doug McCrae

Legend
Brilliant title. And it looks interesting. Out of the three GNS pillars - game, story, world - story is the one that gives me the most trouble by far. I'm not a natural storyteller, I mostly don't think in terms of stories, but in terms of 'world objects' - characters, places, events, etc. The components of story, but not the whole.

However there are already many analyses of the structure of narrative. And I don't think looking at only three examples - Hamlet, Casablanca, Dr No - is anything like enough.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
If we knew the qualities of Hebenon we could backtrack through the turns to where he was infected and calculate how much damage was needed to take him out. I don't remember Hamlet having any poison resistance, so that simplifies things. Of course we'd need to know how much damage Laertes inflicted with his sword.

Wait, what are we talking about?
 


Windjammer

Adventurer
If it has hit points, we can kill it...

Oh dang!

I misread the thread title as "Hommlet's Hit Points" and was looking forward to a new (GSL) 4E supplement where, finally, buildings and cities get assigned HIT POINTS ... so my players get official rules to raze whole villages to the ground, leaving none to be spared.

Oh well, one can dream, can't one?
 

RodneyThompson

First Post
I picked the book up at GenCon. I'm still in the process of reading it, and am enjoying it a lot so far, though it's been slow going because I keep pulling out my copy of Hamlet to read the actual scenes that Robin is referencing, and then getting sucked into the book for a while.

It's a bit light on the direct DM/GM advice, but it's definitely made me think a lot more about the pacing of my own adventures. Right after GenCon I ran a D&D game for my old gaming group back in Tennessee, and while I was prepping for the game I tried to chart out the story beats of the game as I was designing the adventure. The end result was a successful story from my perspective, but of course my players could tell you better if it was well-paced.
 

pemerton

Legend
After seeing this thread I bought the PDF. I'm still reading it, and am enjoying the discussion of Casablanca (one of my favourite movies!).

One thing that is missing, I think - or, at least, missing so far in what I've read - is a discussion of the way that struggle with external threats (which Laws classifies as procedural) can serve a dramatic purpose. I think this is important to the play of RPGs which focus heavily on physical violence eg a lot of fantasy and supers RPGs. For example, the struggles between Banner, the Hulk and Thunderbolt Ross aren't merely procedural - they're also a dramatic struggle between Super-ego, Id and Ego.

I think a key challenge in GMing an RPG is setting up external conflicts that can serve this sort of dramatic purpose.

But perhaps Laws discusses this in the bits I haven't read yet.
 

JoeGKushner

First Post
One of the benefits of being sick is that I'm able to spend some time in reading. as such, I have finished it and have started to reread some of the non-analysis portions for utility.

As a read and examination of the three tales, its well written. As a matter of fact, I think Robin shoots himself in the foot by marketing this to role players.

I say this, because I'm not finding a ton of utility in terms of role playing games.

Now part of this may be that I'm firmly in the old D&D camp. Part of it may be when the book talks about combat and how it has so many up and down beats that its probably best not to track it that way.

Even when it uses something that would be considered combat in analysis, it essentially whiffles like when the blind mice are trying to kill Bond, "best handled by a narrative-style rules set like..." Useful advice but not so useful if you're playing Rolemaster or other systems that have hard interaction between success and the strength of the dice.

In terms of applying the system, we get six pages. There are some interesting things alluded to in those six pages but those need serious expanding. For example, the part about players pushing the beats in character as opposed to player wise ass comments. That would be better served with some examples. The part about setting up scenarios and information instead of just doing it so to speak.

An analysis on a pregenerated adventure, for example, the Keep on the Shadowfell, since it's free from WoTC, would go far in show casing how these ideas work in well, a typical game.

I found the sidebars scattered throughout the book often more useful in bringing good guidelines to the table. For example, under Roasted by the boss. It's an interesting note that it brings an up moment but that the character still suffers from it so that these should be used rarely. Good advice and something that I as a GM have probably fallen into myself.

this isn't always true though. Even when a sidebar provides solid advice, some examples would go a long way in making that advice shine. While reading the bit about Seizing Dominance and remidning the players what bad asses their characters are, how do you go about doing so? Do you as the GM say, "Hey, remember that you're a bass ass." or do you use a foil to reinforce the character is a bad ass in game? What are the differences? what are the pros and cons of each method?

Mind you, these are problems I have with it not problems with the book itself. as a read and an analysis of the stories and coming up with the concepts of beats/ups/downs, it does a great job but it leaves me wanting much more specific ideas on how that would apply to say, how the most popular RPG, D&D, would actually play out as opposed to 'narrative' games like Dying Earth and other games that have such facets essentially built into them.

or am I overreading it?
 

JoeGKushner

First Post
Another potential problem I have with it, is that Robin tries to make the focus of the game all the players and points out some of the pitfalls when its player seeking concession from player. His examples in the analysis are essentially one man shows. If I was Horatio for example in the Hamlet bit, I'd tell the GM I kiss Hamlet's ass and if he needs me for anything I'll be over here playing Dragon Age. Same for Dr. No, it's James Friggin' Bond not Super Spy Incorporated and while I can almost see some more utility than just one guy in Casabalanca, that's really pushing it. It's the story of one man's 'redemption' if you will.

I think Robin, writing for a role playing community, would have been better off finding some movies, novels, or plays with multiple strong characters so that it could better reflect how an actual RPG is played.
 

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