Possible build advice; Defender

Kerranin said:

And, knowing you, you'd also encourage everyone else to provoke opportunity attacks at the same time.

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Hey, I'm not that bad *Thinks about last session.* Ok. I am with melee PCs. But I don't normally encourage other people to play the way I do...

I speak from experience when I say it is generally better to have a melee-heavy group than a ranged-heavy group. There was a session I played where my charisma paladin was the only melee character, and obviously this does not suit paladins. I almost died twice, last death save both times... doesn't help when all the ranged try to move away to max range either.

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Agreed absolutely. Few melee PCs is just inviting the monsters to focus fire - which brings those melee PCs down fast. And then the monsters get to focus fire on the ranged characters, which gets just as ugly.

Revenant Swordmage/Warlock

I'd take a look at Battlemind and the new stuff in Psionic Power.

Swordmages rock. If the party is expecting a defender to basically take all the damage, then the party is not playing well together. In this case, there's plenty of players who can take a hit which lets a Swordmage shine. I prefer Genasi Assault versions, but Shielding works well too. With Assault, you have someone to cover Athletics checks well. You don't necessarily need a whole lot of strength either, you just won't pick Burning Blade and maybe not Greenflame Blade, depending.

A Human or Eladrin with even a 14 in Strength can work well. You can put some points in to Charisma to buff Will, multiclass as a Warlord to nab diplomacy at some point and go to town.

Looking at your party make up you may find that the best way to play a shielding swordmage doesn't quite fit with what you are forced to do to protecct your other party members. Ideally a shielding swordmage wants to mark someone and stay away from that guy, leaving to deal with someone else, and hopefully getting some other melee characters in between you and them. When they attack anyone else they either miss due to the marking penalty or their hit is reduced to something pitiful due to your interrupt Aegis. But with a monk, a warlock and artificer ... you may find you have to just get up in peoples faces and leave all that fancy dancing around. A shielding swordmage is in my mind optimal when the party is strongly melee focused. Actually I prefer a hybrid shielding swordmage/wizard. They can mix it up in close quarters while they drop their Aegis on the chosen victim, then they move back to safety and play the wizard that defends. And of course with all those cantrips they are really fun out of combat as well. But that is when you have a heavily melee focused party, which yours doesn't seem to be.

For up in your face, well you can't really look much further than the fighter. And you don't have to be a tempest fighter. They can do fun, interesting stuff with other builds. Here is the one I'm playing (and will play if I get high enough level) in Dark Sun. Obviously isn't in the CB yet. And Dwarves don't have Str/Con option yet but they will do, so I just used Goliath and changed that manually. It uses the Brawler Fighter build (because the pregen character Dark Sun Encounters comes with uses that build) however I've ditched all the grappling stuff and just made the most of having one hand free.

Cleave is the main power of the build, and it becomes your everything power as you level up. Deft Hurler is the most fun one which allows you to forgo your extra Cleave damage and make a ranged basic attack that doesn't provoke Opportunity Attacks. Which means you can mark two people with cleave, one of them at a distance (pretty handy!!!) at level 2 (or 1 if you forfeit the AC + REF feat). This required a small investment in DEX, but 16 CON is fine, and 18 Strength ... well just imagine you are playing a Dwarf because Muls are Dark Sun not Eberron ... As you can see the build has two empty feat slots (Dwarven Weapon Training and hand axes). Versatile weapons as your main weapon are the way to go, so when you're not pulling your magic javelin and hurling it and stashing it away again, you can wield your weapon two handed when you strike (+1 dmg) and then take your defense hand off again afterwards to protect yourself. DM approval may be necessary, I've seen a few inconclusive discussions about this but it seems like fair game to me. This all goes more smoothly with the Quick Draw feat at level 4. There are 2 slots left in the build. But you may want to use them for some feat tax feats or Dwarven Weapon Training. From what I've heard about essentials there are some new pretty cool expertise feats and NAD boosters that might be what would go there. But personally I'd just put some fun stuff in there that tickled your fancy.

And well Weapon Master's Strike ... this allows me to carry around a number of weapons and play at the Martial Striker/Defender/Controller, although doubling up is probably a good idea as you will be collecting quite a lot of magic weapons as it is (but that's what the game is about anyway right?), using a Khopesh for example (axe and heavy blade), a Glaive for the reach and Polearm/Heavy Blade and well ... I'm going to talk to my DM about swapping Mace for Flail because Yuka comes with a Bone Alhulak and it just seems to make more sense that you'd slide someone with a flail not a mace (which seems like it shoud be a Push)... and for some reason maces have been abandoned by the 4e Gods in general... which fits Dark Sun ... but still... anyway here is a look. I think it's going to be lots of fun to play and really useful as an in-your-face defender who has a bag of tricks up his sleeve when the occaision arises.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Yuka, level 11
Mul (Dwarf), Fighter, Pit Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: Brawler Style
Background: Brother in Battle (Brother in Battle Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 19, Dex 15, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10.


AC: 25 Fort: 24 Reflex: 18 Will: 18
HP: 94 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 23

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +10, Endurance +17, Athletics +17

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Arcana +4, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +7, Heal +7, History +4, Insight +7, Nature +9, Perception +7, Religion +4, Stealth +7, Streetwise +5, Thievery +7

FEATS
Level 1: Brawler Guard (+1 AC +1 REF when you have a free hand)
Level 2: Deft Hurler Style (forgo extra cleave damge to make a ranged basic attack; No OAs are provoked)
Level 4: Quick Draw (Now you can pull out that Javelin as part of the Cleave and stow it as a minor)
Level 6: Untamed Berserker Style (Can forgo extra damage to receive THPs)
Level 8:
Level 10:
Level 11: Heavy Blade Opportunity (Whoah, think about it ... now you can Cleave or Weapon Master Strike as an Opportunity Attack! ANd when you Cleave you can ... Whoah! So that investment in DEX just paid its dividends!)

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Cleave
Fighter at-will 1: Weapon Master's Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Passing Attack
Fighter daily 1: Comeback Strike (these are pretty Dark Sun focused where survival is pretty touch and go)
Fighter utility 2: Inspiring Fortitude (and the Premade characters aren't so great... the team needs all the help they can get)
Fighter encounter 3: Bull Charge (I think this is a good way to start a fight but at level 11 you can retrain this for Rain of Blows now your DEX has reached 15)
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Unbreakable (again, I'd say look at the power selection, decisions have been heavily influenced by the ridiculous damage output of monsters encountered so far)
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It (I like this one... pull everyone in and then action point your Daily Power below! Ouch!)
Fighter daily 9: Thicket of Blades
Fighter utility 10: Fighter's Grit

ITEMS
Scale Armor, , Javelin +1, Khopesh, Mace, Glaive
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Also I could post the runepriest/fighter hybrid I run in my other game which is pretty effective defender that can step into both the striker and leader roles. Plus it has the 'magical element' to it that you are perhaps looking for in a swordmage. Although the source is divine it seems less praying for help and more hammering out your magical runes.

Jbear I'm confused.

Which character that I listed sounded not-melee based?

The list characters were:
Melee build Warlock
Monk (These are a melee class right? Or am I just making a 3.5->4E faux pas?)
And an Artificer(Which is getting a Glaive... so melee too)
And the unknown(Only one so far that may be ranged)

Sounds like according to your analysis of playstyle, Swordmage would be a pretty good option?

(I'm not really familiar with hybrids, but I've never been big into wizards. I'm more a sorcerer guy, spontaneous casting, not bookly learning)

Some people just don't "get" the Swordmage and only can think about/play it one way, especially when they think of the party in a box.

I'm wondering if my problem is understanding the role of a Defender. With my Warden on L4W, my goal was to make myself the only viable target leaving my party free to manuever around them and get the drop on my opponents... and that pretty much never worked out as I wanted(I either got dropped quick or they ignored my mark and rolled well and hit anyway).

With the Swordmage, I basically mark them and (if Assault) 'port over and slap them for doing that... then disengage, or (If Shielding) just mark and leave, ignoring them pretty much indefinitely?

Theroc said:

I'm wondering if my problem is understanding the role of a Defender. With my Warden on L4W, my goal was to make myself the only viable target leaving my party free to manuever around them and get the drop on my opponents... and that pretty much never worked out as I wanted(I either got dropped quick or they ignored my mark and rolled well and hit anyway).

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You are not mistaken the basic role of a defender. But it is basically impossible to COMPLETELY making you the only target.

A defender is meant to harass opponents (by marking) and either encourage them to attack you or make them hard to attack your comrades without including you as a target. Thus all the defender can mark. And defenders have the highest HPs.

Also, depends on the defender's build and the party's composition, a defender's class ability can be used to increase damage-per-round. Because some defenders can either attack or deal damage to the marked opponent when it ignores the defender and attack others and such. In such a case, other party members may intentionally provoke OA for making the combat faster.

Also, some defenders like warden with appropriate powers can use their mark for actively dealing damage (say, with powers which inflicts damage to all the marked enemies).

A Shielding swordmage is not good at punishing the marked opponent. But very good at doing the very basic role as a defender. As the opponent can either attack the swordmage or not only they suffer -2 penalty to attack roll but also their damage is reduced.

Regarding marking, swordmage is good at marking whichever opponent he wants. He does not need to attack the opponents nor be adjacent o it. But swordmage can, basically, mark one opponent at a time.

So, in my experience, a swordmage is good at stopping one really troublesome monster, especially an artillery or a controller. But not so great to stop a horde of melee monsters.

And, as you already noticed, your party has plentiful of rather tough melee combatants. They can deal with multiple mediocre-to-weak melee monsters easukt. So a swordmage works very well for your party I guess.

Shin Okada said:

So, in my experience, a swordmage is good at stopping one really troublesome monster, especially an artillery or a controller. But not so great to stop a horde of melee monsters.

And, as you already noticed, your party has plentiful of rather tough melee combatants. They can deal with multiple mediocre-to-weak melee monsters easukt. So a swordmage works very well for your party I guess.

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Most Defenders can only enforce their mark once per round with a special effect as the response is tied to an immediate action. Paladin's being the exception.

The other aspect of Defenders is OA's and their powers. Fighters and Wardens are great at keeping enemies adjacent to them thanks to OA's but other Defenders are only making fairly regular OA's, for them the mark and their powers is where they shine.

The Aegis often controls a single target whilst the Defender is otherwise free to make other enemies lives hell with thier powers.

Theroc said:

Jbear I'm confused.

Which character that I listed sounded not-melee based?

The list characters were:
Melee build Warlock
Monk (These are a melee class right? Or am I just making a 3.5->4E faux pas?)
And an Artificer(Which is getting a Glaive... so melee too)
And the unknown(Only one so far that may be ranged)

Sounds like according to your analysis of playstyle, Swordmage would be a pretty good option?

(I'm not really familiar with hybrids, but I've never been big into wizards. I'm more a sorcerer guy, spontaneous casting, not bookly learning)

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Sorry I missed that the Warlock was melee based.

I'm unfamiliar with Artificer, sorry. I imagined it was a short ranged leader type like the cleric. But if s/he is using a Glaive that means that s/he will want to be hiding behind you.

And monk being a striker, well, you don't want to drop your mark and hide behind him. But you could of course.

I think the shielding swordmage is a really really cool class. Way better than either of the other two swordmage builds. It's just that ideally it works best be keeping really mobile and keeping a good distance from your mark, dancing around the battlefield as opposed to being a human wall. It's definitely one of my favourite classes. The truth be told I've never seen either a monk or an artificer in action (and I've never even bothered reading through the artificer class at all). It could work really well. What I'm saying is that a shielding swordmage is at it's most effective when it doesn't directly challenge the enemy it has marked. This is made a lot easier when you have a paladin, a fighter, a hulking barbarian or the likes to dodge away behind. But I'm sure you'll still be useful and very effective with the classes that are there with you if they are all melee.

As for hybriding into wizard, the hybrid doesn't receive a spell book and you certainly wouldn't waste your hybrid talent on getting a spellbook when you can get swordmage warding. So i guess it is a far more spontaneous version of the wizard. Studied a bit but just like to play with swords too much, plays the rest by ear. You would be pulling 8 damge off one of your team mates each round at level 1 (human with 16 CON). And you would have a Flaming Sphere.

If you're set on a swordmage, a shielding swordmage is a very good choice. If your still open to ideas, I have a few more