Do allies grant enemies cover?

Theroc · Oct 6, 2010

So, earlier I asked about an Ankheg in regards to a party of level 1 PCs. I decided to try it out and am running the encounter now.

I was wondering if, with the two PC's in a row, if the lead PC granted cover to the Ankheg from the PC in the rear. Not sure how important it will be given the nature of the attack, but I still would like to know. PC is medium sized, if that would impact things.

The quicker someone can give input, the better, as I am literally writing up the round now.

Thanks.

Dandu · Oct 6, 2010

Cover

To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Theroc · Oct 6, 2010

Dandu said:
Cover

To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Haha, I just finished reading that. I wanted to make certain that allies were considered 'creatures' by the text. I believe 4E doesn't, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't getting wires crossed. (I've already mucked up a 4E charge thinking I needed to go in a straight line to my target... which is only the case in 3.X, I guess.

)

I'll assume since you simply quoted the text that allies are indeed creatures by the wording.

Thanks.

Vegepygmy · Oct 6, 2010

Theroc said:
I'll assume since you simply quoted the text that allies are indeed creatures by the wording.

Correct, but note that your allies don't provide you with cover when you move through their squares (PHB page 147).

Jhaelen · Oct 6, 2010

Theroc said:
I'll assume since you simply quoted the text that allies are indeed creatures by the wording.

Umm, in 4e powers that target 'creatures' can affect allies and enemies.

In 3e allies _and_ enemies grant cover _and_ you get another -4 to your ranged attacks if your target is engaged in melee with an opponent (unless you have the proper feats). It's even worse if your target is currently grappling, since you might hit your ally.
Add concealment to the equation and you'll see why it can sometimes be difficult to hit even with a ranged touch attack.

irdeggman · Oct 6, 2010

Theroc said:
Haha, I just finished reading that. I wanted to make certain that allies were considered 'creatures' by the text. I believe 4E doesn't, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't getting wires crossed. (I've already mucked up a 4E charge thinking I needed to go in a straight line to my target... which is only the case in 3.X, I guess. )

I'll assume since you simply quoted the text that allies are indeed creatures by the wording.

Thanks.

Go to the illustration on pg 151 of the pHB and clearly shows and states that an ally provides soft cover for an enemy for a ranged attack.

PHB has better words

"Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with
cover against melee attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However,
such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft
cover allow you to make a Hide check."

Since cover is provided for "you" and the reference is that even enemies can provide it then if the situation is reversed to cover the enemy being attacked then it would be your allies instead of "enemies".

Theroc · Oct 6, 2010

Jhaelen said:
Umm, in 4e powers that target 'creatures' can affect allies and enemies.

I am aware. Which is why attacks that effect "all enemies in blast/burst" are generally better than "All creatures in blast/burst"

Jhaelen said:
In 3e allies _and_ enemies grant cover _and_ you get another -4 to your ranged attacks if your target is engaged in melee with an opponent (unless you have the proper feats). It's even worse if your target is currently grappling, since you might hit your ally.
Add concealment to the equation and you'll see why it can sometimes be difficult to hit even with a ranged touch attack.

Yeah, I can imagine. Luckily this scenario will reduce the chance for that many things to be occurring simultaneously. Thanks for the clarified wording, Ird, that was exactly what I was wondering. I guess I'll have to break out that PHB more often when I've a question regarding the SRD, lol.

Forged Fury · Oct 6, 2010

Theroc said:
I was wondering if, with the two PC's in a row, if the lead PC granted cover to the Ankheg from the PC in the rear. Not sure how important it will be given the nature of the attack, but I still would like to know. PC is medium sized, if that would impact things.

Pretty much. With respect to reach weapons, there is a feat called Precise Swing in the Eberron Campaign Setting that eliminates this penalty.

Zanticor · Oct 9, 2010

Hi there,

We always have problems with this. When shooting there is always cover! Especially when your a wizard shooting rays. What happens if you miss because of the cover? We played it so you hit the cover if you miss within 4 ac of what you needed. We shoot each other in the back so much it's not even funny. Would you all find that a fair rule? Or are you missing 20% of the time because you were overcompensating not to shoot your friend in the back? I think the friendly fire rule is more realistic but this is D&D.
It really gets complicated if you need to roll again to see if you hit your buddy. if you then miss because of his high dex, do you then hit your original target?

Zanticor

Vegepygmy · Oct 9, 2010

Zanticor said:
When shooting there is always cover!

I assume you mean it feels like there is always cover. And I can sympathize with that feeling, but there are many ways to deal with it. Mainly, melee types need to take advantage of the 5-foot step to create spaces for range-attacking allies, and range-attacking allies need to position themselves wisely.

Zanticor said:
What happens if you miss because of the cover?

Nothing, except that you miss.

Zanticor said:
We played it so you hit the cover if you miss within 4 ac of what you needed. We shoot each other in the back so much it's not even funny. Would you all find that a fair rule?

No, IMO that's a horrible rule. If you must impose some consequence like that, I suggest you do it only if you roll a natural 1 or miss within 4 of whatever it would take to hit a patch of ground or something, because putting it at the top end as you have done will result in frequently hitting your ally, and ranged attacks are already discouraged enough by the RAW. You don't need to add injury to insult.

Zanticor said:
Or are you missing 20% of the time because you were overcompensating not to shoot your friend in the back?

Yeah, sure, whatever. It doesn't really matter how you conceptualize it. The -4 to hit is really just a nod to realism and an attempt to make sure D&D doesn't devolve into a bunch of guys peeking around corners, shooting each other at range.

Zanticor said:
It really gets complicated if you need to roll again to see if you hit your buddy. if you then miss because of his high dex, do you then hit your original target?

That's why it's better not to start down that road. Just say you miss and move on.

Do allies grant enemies cover?

Theroc

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Dandu

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Theroc

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Vegepygmy

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Jhaelen

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irdeggman

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Theroc

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Forged Fury

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Zanticor

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