Slayer build sillyness

Shin Okada · Oct 26, 2010

That slayer build does not seem to be broken. It is damping one of the most useful stat for a melee combatant, str. Str is useful for having good enough Athletics skill modifier and also give it a good Fort defense.

Also, this character will eventually become slightly less striky than usual Str/Dex build slayer.

Say, he starts from Dex 20. By level 30, his Dex become 30 (+10) assuming he chooses an epic destiny which can increase dex by 2. Now he gains damage bonus from his Dex mod (+10) plus half of it (+5) =+15

On the other hand, A human slayer who starts from Str 20 and Dex 14 will become Str 30 (+10) and Dex 24 (+7), assuming he chooses an epic destiny which gives him 2 stats boosts. Now he gains damage bonus from his Str (+10) plus Dex (+7) =+17. If he is a half-orc, +18.

Ryujin · Oct 26, 2010

The single-stat Slayer does have other advantages though. It makes it possible to have a good, damage dealing character while having higher non traditional Fighter stats, if you want to build a character concept. An acrobatic, sneaky, charismatic swashbuckling fighter becomes a real possibility. Non traditional multiclasses also become possible, with good results.

Lord Ernie · Oct 26, 2010

Ryujin said:
The single-stat Slayer does have other advantages though. It makes it possible to have a good, damage dealing character while having higher non traditional Fighter stats, if you want to build a character concept. An acrobatic, sneaky, charismatic swashbuckling fighter becomes a real possibility. Non traditional multiclasses also become possible, with good results.

Of course the single-stat Slayer offers an answer for a straightforward implementation of certain archetypes. But at least for myself, I was responding to the following statement in the OP:

Perun said:
I wouldn't call this slayer overpowered, but the fact that a character so modified can out-perform the basic, original version of the class (or, in this case, a build) clearly suggests that it wasn't a planned result.

Now, while the single-stat slayer is viable, and in a mild, non-heavily optimized environment (meaning, most groups) capable of perfectly adequate performance as a Striker. This is especially true in Heroic tier, where the damage deficiency of the nerfed Melee Training is not big enough yet to make much of a difference.

But - unlike the OP claims - it's not at all outperforming the standard Str/Dex approach, and it can't even get near more heavily-optimized variants with Gouge/Rain Of Blows/Reserve Maneuver abuse, which requires either a good Strength score, or Daring Blade shenanigans.

Pickles JG · Oct 26, 2010

A halfling slayer seems to work* too. Way better than a halfling barbarian would & I have a great halfling barbarian mini to use ....

*not suck I know it's suboptimal.

Ryujin · Oct 26, 2010

Lord Ernie said:
Of course the single-stat Slayer offers an answer for a straightforward implementation of certain archetypes. But at least for myself, I was responding to the following statement in the OP:

Now, while the single-stat slayer is viable, and in a mild, non-heavily optimized environment (meaning, most groups) capable of perfectly adequate performance as a Striker. This is especially true in Heroic tier, where the damage deficiency of the nerfed Melee Training is not big enough yet to make much of a difference.

But - unlike the OP claims - it's not at all outperforming the standard Str/Dex approach, and it can't even get near more heavily-optimized variants with Gouge/Rain Of Blows/Reserve Maneuver abuse, which requires either a good Strength score, or Daring Blade shenanigans.

No, definitely not an out-performer, but it sure looks like a good base for a character theme without losing out much on the damage side of things.

Perun · Oct 26, 2010

Lord Ernie said:
But - unlike the OP claims - it's not at all outperforming the standard Str/Dex approach, and it can't even get near more heavily-optimized variants with Gouge/Rain Of Blows/Reserve Maneuver abuse, which requires either a good Strength score, or Daring Blade shenanigans.

Ah, yes. I haven't had the time to check the OP boards for any optimal builds, and, having no practical experience with high(er)-level play, I missed on the various feat/ability/whatever combinations. My fault. I officially withdraw the part about out-performing the Str/Dex build

I do still stand by my initial observation (if slightly modified) on how wonderfully effective such a build can be, even if it's now been shown to me how it can be bested by the "standard" (if optimised) slayer builds.

I'll even go so far to say that I might prefer this Dex-focused build, as, in the end, it feels more like a well-rounded character than the standard build (after you maximise your Dexterity, you still have 6 points to play around with; with Str/Dex build you pretty much spend all your points on two ability scores).

Regards.

Ryujin · Oct 26, 2010

Or you can have a 16 attribute, then add racial modifiers, and have even more to work with and create a well-rounded character.

Prestidigitalis · Oct 26, 2010

Ryujin said:
The single-stat Slayer does have other advantages though. It makes it possible to have a good, damage dealing character while having higher non traditional Fighter stats, if you want to build a character concept. An acrobatic, sneaky, charismatic swashbuckling fighter becomes a real possibility. Non traditional multiclasses also become possible, with good results.

It also allows for making Con the secondary ability score. A dwarf with an array of 13/16/18/8/10/10 can get amazing hit points, surge count and surge value at paragon levels, and the mobility options of the Slayer can make up for the reduced speed.

The Thief has a similar benefit over earlier Rogue builds -- there is no large benefit to any secondary score (even for a high Strength or Charisma Rogue, Feinting Trick is terrible and Tumbling Trick is only mediocre) so unless you really want to max out your Charisma skills you can just as well make Constitution your secondary focus.

Prestidigitalis · Oct 26, 2010

Lord Ernie said:
Check out the Charop boards if you wanna know if this is broken or not. In fact, there already is a Slayer optimization guide being made right here.

Is there a reason why that guide is not indexed here? Are they only indexed when they are completed or something like that?

Sunseeker · Oct 26, 2010

AbdulAlhazred said:
Huh?

The fighter is a defender, so why would it be unusual for a striker to do more damage than a defender? Not only that but you're dead wrong about the fighter being less capable as a damage dealer than other defenders, that's nonsense. The baseline PHB1 fighter is VERY close to striker level damage already, AND has the best defending mechanics in the game (well arguably the Knight may now be better, but the jury is still out on that). In any situation where the Fighter can draw mark punishment/OAs he will QUICKLY surpass pretty much any other class in damage output too, including Slayers, Bow Rangers, etc. Build a good punishing GWT fighter and grab fullblade, you're LETHAL and anyone who defies your mark is a fool. Of course you won't do the damage of a Slayer or a Bow Ranger BASELINE and you shouldn't.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying the fighter should be comprable to a striker while playing defender. I'm saying that the fighter should have always had the abilitiy to be built as either a striker, or a defender. The "fighter" is a very generic class, and as such, I have always been annoyed that it could ONLY be built as a defender in 4e. Same applies to the paladin, but that's another story.

I just can't really understand why anyone would think fighters should be doing striker level damage if they have defender mechanics. Slayer really isn't a good point of comparison with the fighter overall. They are built for different things.

Except that the Slayer is drawn from the redone version of the Fighter, therefore it must be compared. As I said above, the options the fighter always should have had, to either be as their name suggests, a FIGHTer or a defender.

Slayer build sillyness

Shin Okada

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Ryujin

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Lord Ernie

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Pickles JG

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Ryujin

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Perun

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Ryujin

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Prestidigitalis

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Prestidigitalis

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Sunseeker

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