Slayer build sillyness

Lord Ernie · Oct 27, 2010

Perun said:
Ah, yes. I haven't had the time to check the OP boards for any optimal builds, and, having no practical experience with high(er)-level play, I missed on the various feat/ability/whatever combinations. My fault. I officially withdraw the part about out-performing the Str/Dex build

I do still stand by my initial observation (if slightly modified) on how wonderfully effective such a build can be, even if it's now been shown to me how it can be bested by the "standard" (if optimised) slayer builds.

I'll even go so far to say that I might prefer this Dex-focused build, as, in the end, it feels more like a well-rounded character than the standard build (after you maximise your Dexterity, you still have 6 points to play around with; with Str/Dex build you pretty much spend all your points on two ability scores).

Regards.

Good graces on the internet are always appreciated, good sir.

And I've been thinking about single or off-stat slayers ever since the mechanics behind them were revealed. I think the idea is awesome, and the amount of possible archetypes the class opens up is surprising; it was just the out-performing thing that I disagreed with.

For those fiddling with non-standard ideas for a slayer, Half-elves get to pull off extra shenanigans with their Dilettante ability, which lets you cheat in Eldritch Strike or one of the Seeker ranged basics to use as a basic attack.

Prestidigitalis said:
It also allows for making Con the secondary ability score. A dwarf with an array of 13/16/18/8/10/10 can get amazing hit points, surge count and surge value at paragon levels, and the mobility options of the Slayer can make up for the reduced speed.

The Thief has a similar benefit over earlier Rogue builds -- there is no large benefit to any secondary score (even for a high Strength or Charisma Rogue, Feinting Trick is terrible and Tumbling Trick is only mediocre) so unless you really want to max out your Charisma skills you can just as well make Constitution your secondary focus.

Yup. It also opens up the archetype of the highly perceptive rogue, who can stalk someone in the dark of night easily, and can spot the knife coming at him from behind his back (Wisdom focus, of course). Again, I like it.

Prestidigitalis said:
Is there a reason why that guide is not indexed here? Are they only indexed when they are completed or something like that?

I suspect either the person who keeps that thread up-to-date hasn't indexed the new thread yet (it is less than a week old, after all), or indeed only somewhat complete handbooks are included.

With most of the power choices gone for Slayers, the guide really needs feat and weapon advice, Reserve Maneuver (Rain of Blows) + PP abuse, and a good choice of ED's before it's finished.

Jack99 · Oct 27, 2010

shidaku said:
You misunderstand. I'm not saying the fighter should be comprable to a striker while playing defender. I'm saying that the fighter should have always had the abilitiy to be built as either a striker, or a defender. The "fighter" is a very generic class, and as such, I have always been annoyed that it could ONLY be built as a defender in 4e. Same applies to the paladin, but that's another story.

Except that the Slayer is drawn from the redone version of the Fighter, therefore it must be compared. As I said above, the options the fighter always should have had, to either be as their name suggests, a FIGHTer or a defender.

I am not argue that how your feel is wrong, but you keep saying the fighter could only be built as a defender in 4e. What does it matter what role it has, when it in fact performs just like you want? Because, as has been mentioned before, the greatweapon fighter from core 4e could easily be built to match or even surpass many other strikers.

CovertOps · Oct 27, 2010

Jack99 said:
I am not argue that how your feel is wrong, but you keep saying the fighter could only be built as a defender in 4e. What does it matter what role it has, when it in fact performs just like you want? Because, as has been mentioned before, the greatweapon fighter from core 4e could easily be built to match or even surpass many other strikers.

Having had a Str/Con Fighter with an Urgosh at my table I can attest to the striker level damage AND all the defender abilities in tact. I'm not really pleased that such a build is possible. The Slayer OTOH I like because it gets the striker damage at the expense of being a defender (marking or Aura for the Knight).

Mr. Wilson · Oct 27, 2010

Prestidigitalis said:
Is there a reason why that guide is not indexed here? Are they only indexed when they are completed or something like that?

LDB just started it up at the end of last week. I'm going to guess the Wiki guides just haven't caught up to it yet.

Also, I'd throw in my support for Great Weapon fighters being pretty freaking strikery. Getting drilled with 2d6b1 weapons with daily's that reach 3W at 1st level is pretty nice, to say the least.

edit: Dangit, missed LE's post at the top of the page. Sorry for the retread info.

Prestidigitalis · Oct 27, 2010

Mr. Wilson said:
LDB just started it up at the end of last week. I'm going to guess the Wiki guides just haven't caught up to it yet.

In a way I had a bigger question about that link -- I keep thinking that someone will post an Essentials Thief guide, and it keeps not being there. Granted, I could do it myself, but I don't have a login, and I need to check the mailbox for the new issue of Procrastination Semi-Quarterly, and it's kind of scary...

Mr. Wilson · Oct 28, 2010

Lol, I see. I don't own the Essentials line, so I'm not capable of making the guide. I'm sure someone will make one, but given that LDB does most of the melee builds, people seem to stay out of his way when it comes to the guides and await for his word.

CovertOps · Oct 28, 2010

I don't remember if this was said or not, but the 20 Dex Slayer does have one advantage that I was reminded of from another thread. Get a Great bow. RBA is already based on Dex so you get to add the full amount twice and throw in the stance for 1d12+12 at first level (+13 if you're human and grab W Focus).

Prestidigitalis · Oct 28, 2010

CovertOps said:
I don't remember if this was said or not, but the 20 Dex Slayer does have one advantage that I was reminded of from another thread. Get a Great bow. RBA is already based on Dex so you get to add the full amount twice and throw in the stance for 1d12+12 at first level (+13 if you're human and grab W Focus).

Or better, get Bow Expertise. As the proficiency bonus for bow is only +2, you kind of need it, and your target will be isolated often enough to get the +1 for having no adjacent creatures.

It's a shame that Slayer features like Power Strike are melee-only. Otherwise you really could do a lot with an RBA-based Slayer. The Mobile Blade stance, for example, works a lot better at range than in melee.

Psikus · Oct 28, 2010

CovertOps said:
I don't remember if this was said or not, but the 20 Dex Slayer does have one advantage that I was reminded of from another thread. Get a Great bow. RBA is already based on Dex so you get to add the full amount twice and throw in the stance for 1d12+12 at first level (+13 if you're human and grab W Focus).

That is a good point, though I think thrown weapons are also relevant to the discussion. If you intend to go all the way and spend feats for ranged proficiency, expertise, and what not, the Dex build is clearly better for ranged attacks. However, if you just play a melee-focused character which sometimes switches to ranged weapons when it gets immobilized or has to fight a flying enemy, you may be better off with a Str-based character and heavy thrown weapons. Handaxes, javelins and throwing hammers have a tiny damage die and mediocre range, but they can also benefit from feats you'd already have for your main weapon (i.e. expertise, focus, maybe even weaponm astery).

CovertOps · Oct 28, 2010

Psikus said:
That is a good point, though I think thrown weapons are also relevant to the discussion. If you intend to go all the way and spend feats for ranged proficiency, expertise, and what not, the Dex build is clearly better for ranged attacks. However, if you just play a melee-focused character which sometimes switches to ranged weapons when it gets immobilized or has to fight a flying enemy, you may be better off with a Str-based character and heavy thrown weapons. Handaxes, javelins and throwing hammers have a tiny damage die and mediocre range, but they can also benefit from feats you'd already have for your main weapon (i.e. expertise, focus, maybe even weaponm astery).

I had to go look...Power Strike is for melee attacks only otherwise....2d12+12 yes please.

Slayer build sillyness

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