What kind of Leader will you make for this party?

Shin Okada · Oct 26, 2010

Ok, in another thread I have asked for help making a 4th-level ranged (possibly a bow or crossbow wielding) leader.

But now I am thinking about going more open for various builds.

Now, our 4th-level party has,

Dwarf Orb Wizard dual-wielding Battlecrazed Kopesh and an Orb
Dwarf Battlerager Fighter
Human Avenger of Censure of Unity
Human Brutal Scoundrel Rogue with Rapier
and We eill likely have new Minotaur Stone Fist Monk

This is a loose game meeting which usually not all the members gather. And we usually play a one-shot game which can playable within a day (most of them are form Chaos Scar). We will play when at least 2 players attend a game. And complement lacking rolls via adding Companion Characters. I guess I can almost always attend those games.

Now, when I am making a Leader PC, I have several Concern.

1: Traffic Jam
As you see, we have a lot of melee combatants when all or the most of the players gather. In that case, I am afraid of that adding melee leader may cause traffic jams.

2: Must support melee combatants.
I thought about making some ranged Bard or Ranged Warlord. But they seem to be not so good at supporting melee combatants. Maybe I am wrong, though.

3: Skills.
Amongst all the PCs, only the Avenger has really good Nature and Perception skills. Also, in over all, the party do not have many Strength based PCs (only the Fighter and the Monk). And some of those PCs may be absent in as certain game.

Any thought or advices?

webrunner · Oct 26, 2010

Shin Okada said:
Ok, in another thread I have asked for help making a 4th-level ranged (possibly a bow or crossbow wielding) leader.

But now I am thinking about going more open for various builds.

Now, our 4th-level party has,

Dwarf Orb Wizard dual-wielding Battlecrazed Kopesh and an Orb
Dwarf Battlerager Fighter
Human Avenger of Censure of Unity
Human Brutal Scoundrel Rogue with Rapier
and We eill likely have new Minotaur Stone Fist Monk

This is a loose game meeting which usually not all the members gather. And we usually play a one-shot game which can playable within a day (most of them are form Chaos Scar). We will play when at least 2 players attend a game. And complement lacking rolls via adding Companion Characters. I guess I can almost always attend those games.

Now, when I am making a Leader PC, I have several Concern.

1: Traffic Jam
As you see, we have a lot of melee combatants when all or the most of the players gather. In that case, I am afraid of that adding melee leader may cause traffic jams.

2: Must support melee combatants.
I thought about making some ranged Bard or Ranged Warlord. But they seem to be not so good at supporting melee combatants. Maybe I am wrong, though.

3: Skills.
Amongst all the PCs, only the Avenger has really good Nature and Perception skills. Also, in over all, the party do not have many Strength based PCs (only the Fighter and the Monk). And some of those PCs may be absent in as certain game.

Any thought or advices?

A pike warlord can stand back a bit, while still granting a lot of MBAs. Also, if you can beef up your Initiatve, a CHARGE warlord with a pike can do a lot of damage with a mostly-melee party, as long as he can move before them.

Riastlin · Oct 26, 2010

Hmm, I still like the idea of a Bard here, though I think I would go either Cunning or Valor. He would be able to use staggering note to allow the fighter to mark an extra target each round (and get an extra attack), guiding strike to drop the AC, wear medium armor (chain) and use a shield so as to help out in melee. Or you can go Hide and boost Int (particularly if you go the Cunning route) and still use a light shield. The bard could pop in and out of melee and ranged which helps if the strikers get a little too ganged up on, or if the fighter misses a session. Plus the bard could use a songblade for both his implement and melee powers.

Alternatively, I think you could go with the warpriest or a balanced cleric. I don't have HotFL so not sure if the warpriest can obtain regular cleric powers or not which would obviously allow him to pop in and out of melee as well.

My main thinking here is that you may want to have some melee ability just to help the strikers if they start taking too much damage, or to help out the fighter. The fighter can only mark things he swings at, and then only for a round, so an extra melee here and there might help even if its generally better to stand back and let the other melees do their thing.

If you had a second defender already, I would say just go with a standard ranged leader, perhaps artificer or cleric for the surgeless healing, but I think you might make use of a few melee powers.

Just my two coppers.

Prestidigitalis · Oct 26, 2010

You listed "Skills" as the #3 concern. If that means it is of lesser importance, I'd go with a Warlord to grant some of that weapon-wielding traffic jam extra attacks. If it is of prime importance, then you really have to go with a Bard, unless you are willing to spend a lot of feats on skill training.

If a Bard, then presumably you want Cunning so that your Intelligence pumps up the big three knowledge skills, and because you will be doing ranged attacks that tend to rely on Int. If Warlord, any of them should do so long as you pick Commander's Strike and/or Direct the Strike for at-wills.

generalchaos34 · Oct 26, 2010

Given the mass of melee you have giving people free standard attacks would certainly do a nice job, and as the above poster said using a pike or a spear would definitely do well keep him from geting in the way. Also dont forget about the humble runesmith, who gives alot of passive +damage or hit based on simply being adjacent, they only suffer from a *severe* lack of support, but can be fun in their own right, especially if you go 2 handed mace

Herschel · Oct 26, 2010

WTF?! Go with Prescient Bard and Jinx Shot for the win.

Fighter: Defender AC
Avanger: Defender AC
Rogue: Near-Defender AC (and loving free combat advantage from prone target)

When you need ranged, the Wizard and bard will have to provide it but in a scrum, you make melee fun for the party.

Mengu · Oct 26, 2010

Various Warlord builds, Runepriest, or Shaman (Eagle or Panther) would all work quite nicely for supporting this melee party. But the weakness of this party is range. Someone needs to be able to hit stuff at range other than the wizard. As such, I'd go with a Skirmishing Warlord, Cunning Bard or maybe Elf Cleric with Silvery Arrow. Maybe even go hybrid for ranger with twin strike, and cover healing with Corellon's Blessing or Shaman MC.

Skirmishing Warlords can support melee quite sufficiently. Race the Arrow is very nice for some of your buddies. And no one will complain when you stick Relentless Wounding on a target, though if you are a Javelin user, you have other nice options too. Create a Target can be interesting if you can coordinate with your wizard and your avenger. Martial Doom or Staggering Shot will make your rogue happy. Be a Stormsoul Genasi with a Lightning Bow, use Promise of Storm, Martial Doom, Adaptive Stratagem, action point, Race the Arrow, and your rogue may just finish off the target.

Shin Okada · Oct 27, 2010

Prestidigitalis,

No, those numbers are just numbers and not the priorities. Skill problem seems to be big. We have just lost a warlord in the previous game because that day players of the other strength PCs and Avenger was absent. As a result, no one could find Green Slimes before they attack, and no one could find out that Green Slimes' vulnerabilities, and only the warlord could escape from the grab at reasonable rate (high Athletics).

Mengu,
>But the weakness of this party is range.

I agree. In heroic tier games battlefields are tend to not so wide but ... If I can have a Leader PC who can attack at range 20 with reasonable fire power, that will really help this party, I guess.

As I wrote in the another threat, I see too many Shamans in the games I am attending (There are 2 shamans in the campaigns I am DMing and another one in a campaign I am attending as a player). So I hesitate to play another one by myself.

But Hybrid leader/Ranger with Shaman MC could be an interesting option. I need 2 feats to make it work. But at least I can use two healing powers per encounter.

666Sinner666 · Oct 27, 2010

Hybrid Human Artificer|Warlord. Build Link. One of the greatest leader builds around. It just will not provide any skill support. In reality with such a melee and striker heavy group you either need a healing cleric, not a pacifist for the love of god, or a bard who multiclasses like hell to get more healing. That or a reboot of your group focusing on filling roles.

In previous groups that I have been in that had this problem when there were still spots open we all came to an agreement either the new person played what was needed or one of us ditched our character and played what was needed because dieing constantly just does not equal fun.

Mr. Wilson · Oct 27, 2010

I'd vote for a skirmishing warlord (where you can provide some ranged powers) or a cunning bard.

Or, just take the Killswitch build listed earlier and rock people's faces off. That build is just amazing.

Though, I'd probably switch at the L5 Warlord daily for Lead the Attack, a level 1 Warlord daily at 5th level. (I believe this is legal, but I haven't built a hybrid in awhile.)