The misbegotten waif thread a/k/a The Fray V2

GandalfMithrandir · Apr 6, 2011

oh dear oh dear oh dear, I worry for our group

Rhun · Apr 6, 2011

Ryan, in a 4E game, if a Fighter and a Rogue of the same level and optimal build engage in combat with each other, who will win?

I'm just curious, because from my perspective (as a grognard, of course), there is no way a Rogue should be able to defeat a Fighter in straight up combat. However, my impression of 4E is that is is quite possible the Rogue would win in the fight.

renau1g · Apr 6, 2011

Hmmm...well, if the rogue can regularly generate combat advantage he'd likely win (same as getting his backstab in prior editions), but without that advantage he's using smaller weapons (usually dagger) vs a superior hp/defenses so their damage could likely be relatively similar. A fighter's survivability would likely give him the edge IMO. Rogue probably has 16 AC at level 1, Fighter has 17-20 (whether using a shield or not).

One huge advantage is that once the Rogue's next to him, he's not going anywhere...

An very-optimized Fighter like Beowulf (Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible) would probably wipe the floor with a rogue...once he got his hands on him.

renau1g · Apr 6, 2011

GandalfMithrandir said:
oh dear oh dear oh dear, I worry for our group

So true...they did say ""Get'em boys! Get'em good!"" so Todarg took that as hostile

Rhun · Apr 6, 2011

You are definitely the 4E expert around these parts!

Walking Dad · Apr 6, 2011

Velmont said:
Sounds a fair analysis. But I would add something. When it come to skills, 3e give a more flexible way to handle skill and give a way to give some personality to your character.

4e have simplified the skill system to a point where skill doesn't define much your character as 3e did. As renau1g told, there is nothing bad to it. But I always had a preference on point system, and I must tell my favorite character on EnWorld up to now was a Rinaldo the Merchant (a 3rd edition Rogue), which allowed me to give more sense to his Merchant background than I was able to do it with Leonard Doherty (a 4th edition Bard)

We just realized in HM Carrion Crown game how useless un-optimized Diplomacy is in Pathfinder. And 3.5 had Use Rope. I prefer the 4e solution for fantasy games.

Rhun · Apr 6, 2011

Walking Dad said:
We just realized in HM Carrion Crown game how useless un-optimized Diplomacy is in Pathfinder. And 3.5 had Use Rope. I prefer the 4e solution for fantasy games.

I do admit that I think Use Rope was sort of a silly skill.

renau1g · Apr 6, 2011

2e had some silly non-weapon proficencies, 4e has the Linguist feat. There's lots of crappy options in every edition

Velmont · Apr 6, 2011

It is not in the skill list I see a flaw, but the fact that in 4e edition you are either train or not in a skill. You can use some of your precious feat to play with it, but you have less flexibility on your skill modifier than the 3e.

For the skill list, I also thought, there was some skill that was mostly useless or that should be regroup. I liked what Mutant and Mastermind did.

I would have preferred something in between the two edition I think.