The Best Class/Build for My Party's Leader?

Astral Seal CAN produce more damage in certain cases. RB however has the advantage in any kind of pivotal situation. It doesn't actually generate more damage, you haven't considered all aspects of the math. You can go take a look at the workup that Keterys did on this WAY back when. At that time, pre-debuff, AS was marginally better all around. This is no longer the case. You have to factor in things like excess damage, wasted conditions, and action economy considerations. On the whole RB actually outperforms AS.

Anyway, we can continue to argue for 100 more pages about this. My point was pretty clear, the OP asked about melee leaders. I pointed to the STR cleric. Another poster came back with the usual rote misfactual "STR clerics are crap" and I replied that in fact it is in no way shape or form an inferior choice. I stand by that statement. Again, I'm not really trying to compare the whole class build to all other leaders and state that it 'the best'. It is QUITE a bit better than you're making it out to be though. Remember, as a melee oriented character you have access to ALL of the vast array of benefits available to weapon users and some good solid weapon keyword powers to use them with. The same can be said for PPs and EDs, etc.

AbdulAlhazred said:

Astral Seal CAN produce more damage in certain cases. RB however has the advantage in any kind of pivotal situation. It doesn't actually generate more damage, you haven't considered all aspects of the math. You can go take a look at the workup that Keterys did on this WAY back when. At that time, pre-debuff, AS was marginally better all around. This is no longer the case. You have to factor in things like excess damage, wasted conditions, and action economy considerations. On the whole RB actually outperforms AS.

Anyway, we can continue to argue for 100 more pages about this. My point was pretty clear, the OP asked about melee leaders. I pointed to the STR cleric. Another poster came back with the usual rote misfactual "STR clerics are crap" and I replied that in fact it is in no way shape or form an inferior choice. I stand by that statement. Again, I'm not really trying to compare the whole class build to all other leaders and state that it 'the best'. It is QUITE a bit better than you're making it out to be though. Remember, as a melee oriented character you have access to ALL of the vast array of benefits available to weapon users and some good solid weapon keyword powers to use them with. The same can be said for PPs and EDs, etc.

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Warlords have all of that and are Martial. Martial power source has the best melee weapon support. Str Clerics aren't bad, but they are easily the weakest Cleric build and require significant feat investment and stat spread to defensively match Warlord or Valbard. And Clerics, by default, have two PPs with no pre-reqs other then "Cleric" that are Str-based. We're not talking about a "ton of options", sorry.

How does free healing vs a very minor amount of damage win in a "pivotal" situation? And AS wins on wasted damage, it does none. RB can kill the target completely wasting the buff. Astral Seal can't. Astral Seal wins on action economy: it applies to everyone who attacks, in melee it will sometimes be the case that your only other melee ally cannot attack your target without provoking OAs and etc, meaning RB's bonus is wasted. And if you really need the your ally to have that bonus, it is more accurate. Providing +2 (again, to everyone) instead of a +3 but providing it 10% more often is automatically better in "pivotal" situations. I have considered all aspects of the math, extensively. You clearly haven't.

Since you have two non-melee attackers in your party, I think you'll get better mileage out of effects that don't rely on melee attacks.

Righteous Brand can be awesome in the right party, but in this party it only works if the Fighter is in the right position. It basically means your Cleric and the Fighter both are focused on one foe at a time, while the Sorcerer and Wizard are left to fend for themselves.

Consider this mid-range melee-friendly build:

Dwarf Cleric, all attacks use Wisdom.
I'd take Healer's Mercy over Turn Undead unless you think undead will figure heavily in the campaign.

At-Wills:
- Sonnlinor's Hammer (Wisdom-based melee basic attack)
- Astral Seal (mid-range focused fire)

Encounter:
1 - Divine Glow (the attack bonus stacks with Astral Seal's penalty)
3 - Hymn of Resurgence (another defense penalty, which stacks)
7 - Wrathful Lightning (re-position the Defender or yourself)

Daily:
1 - Beacon of Hope (the +5 healing enhances Astral Seal and your own Second Wind)
5 - Consecrated Ground (nobody dies this fight, guaranteed)
9 - Astral Defenders or Blade Barrier (the latter if the Wizard and Sorcerer have a lot of push or slide effects)

Utility:
2 - Armor of Faith (when an enemy is picking on one PC's weak defense)
6 - Bastion of Healing or Gift of Good Fortune
10 - Shielding Word or Recall Ally

Basically, play as a Pacifist Cleric when you can, or as a secondary melee blocker when you can't.


The place where things get interesting is your Paragon Path: you take Warpriest. Now you can Mark with any at-will melee attack power (i.e. Sonnlinor's Hammer), and your Mark grants you a free opportunity attack (i.e. Sonnlinor's Hammer). Pick up magic items which boost your opportunity attacks or melee basic attack: they're your main contribution to melee combat, and your main threat as a secondary Defender.


For Feats, there are some things to consider:

1/ Can you count on your DM to give you a specific magic item?
Yes = Dwarven Weapon Training (and put "+2 Disrupting Mordenkrad" on your wishlist)
No = Symbol of the Sonnlinor (and feel bad about losing the extra damage, or take both)

2/ How much of a Defender do you want to be?
VERY = Battlefield Awareness, Wary Fighter, Hammering Iron
Not so much = Coordinated Explosion, Shield the Fallen, Quick Steps

3/ You want a bonus to both weapon and implement attacks using a hammer (or axe or mace, but I recommend a hammer). The cheapest way to get both is Versatile Expertise, but that increases at levels 15 and 25 (rather than 11 and 21). Look at all your Expertise options carefully.

4/ At Paragon tier, you must take Dwarven Durability. It's so good it should not be optional. I also like Justice Hammer, since you'll be making a lot of at-will attacks (because of your Mark), and because it means you won't feel sad if you crit with Astral Seal (usually depressing because no damage -> no extra damage).


Magic Items:
Mordenkrad of Disruption - eat justice, evildoer!
Rushing Cleats - if you took the Hammering Iron feat.
Bracers of Mighty Striking - a cheap, solid bonus.
Helm of Opportunity - another cheap, solid bonus.
Moradin's Blessing of Iron - go ahead, Pull me.
Armor - Healer's Armor has been nerfed, so pick anything else.
Brooch of the Healer - has NOT been nerfed, so it's still awesome.


If the tactics & synergies of this build aren't obvious, let me know, I can explain stuff.

Cheers, -- N

Aulirophile said:

+1 to everyone (including yourself) is better then +3 to one person.

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I'll take the +3 for one ally just as happily. It either greatly increases the chance of landing a daily or a perfect teamwork power with a defender if you're the melee pair (which the OP is). Either build is fine.

One thing I'd like to point out that seems to have been missed is the actual social situation teh OP listed: He's joining a new group. Ignore Char-Op twinkie builds and build something fun, cool and useful without trying to look like a show-off solo.

You know, I'll go ahead and give another recommendation for the Sentinel Druid. Either build would work, really, but with all your ranged attackers, Spring/Wolf is badass.

It's a Wis/Con class, so you will have plenty of HPs and surges. It's not only a melee-focused class, but it also gives you a second melee combatant to help protect your allies even more. Although almost all your powers are Dailies, several of them last the whole day - and your Wizard would love you forever with the Level 6 utility (either fox's or serpent's cunning) which gives them +1 to hit. All day. (And a new trained skill, etc.)

Finally, your AC won't be too shoddy with Hide and a Light Shield, since Constitution helps your AC instead of Dex in light armor.

Heck; go with half-elf. Your stats are a perfect match, with Wis/Con. Go with the new Essentials racial power, and snag yourself another extra Leadery thing which is versatile enough to find use in every encounter.

-O

Does this cleric suck?

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 3
Dwarf, Cleric
Build: Battle Cleric
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12.

AC: 19 Fort: 16 Reflex: 13 Will: 16
HP: 36 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 9
TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +6, Insight +8, History +6, Heal +8
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Arcana +1, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +6, Intimidate +2, Nature +3, Perception +3, Stealth +2, Streetwise +2, Thievery +2, Athletics +5
FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Armor Proficiency: Scale
Level 2: Battle Healer
POWERS
Channel Divinity: Healer's Mercy
Cleric at-will 1: Invigorating Assault
Cleric at-will 1: Priest's Shield
Cleric encounter 1: Healing Strike
Cleric daily 1: Shield of the Gods
Cleric utility 2: Cure Light Wounds
Cleric encounter 3: Split the Sky
ITEMS
Ritual Book, Terror Warhammer +1, Crossbow, Crossbow Bolts (20), Amulet of Health +1, Hide Armor, Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (2), Dwarven Scale Armor +1
RITUALS
Gentle Repose, Comrades' Succor
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

No, but it has (minor) issues. Your first defense feat should be Light Shield Prof, because it gives you +1 AC (just like Scale vs Chain) and +1 Ref. For the same reason going up to Heavy Shield Prof after that would be better then Scale if you still wanted to buff defenses. This naturally assumes a 1h weapon, if you want to go with a 2her Scale prof is the obvious choice. Either way picking up Dwarven Weapon Training at some point will be good.

A crossbow is useless, it uses Dex for the attack/damage roll when you make an RBA with it. A couple of heavy thrown are a better option (albeit with shorter range). Hand axes or throwing hammers. Get a magical one as a back-up weapon eventually, it returns to your hand after throwing it.

There is so much Wis support now you can actually make a fairly amazing Melee Cleric who is completely Wis-based. Most of the riders are Cha based, but many are just Wis based. The following build allows you to get the epic crit feat with axes, and at level 8 you can pick up one of the weapons that also acts as a Holy Symbol. Can grab Heavy Shield Prof at Paragon. Your Fort and Ref will be a little low starting mid-Heroic, but with Improved Defenses and a Belt/Boots that boost Ref/Fort (and those are extremely common) they'll be fine. You can also get both Scale, Plate, and Plate Specialization if you want to invest the feats for ridiculous AC. Switch to an Executioner's Axe if you want to go 2h and pick up Scale and then Plate at Paragon.

Oh, and you can pick up a Ranged At-Will once you get a weapon that acts as a Holy Symbol, giving you a good option for ranged buffing or healing or damage or save granting (take your pick).

If you've decided to go Cleric I'd read this thread.

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 3
Dwarf, Cleric
Build: Battle Cleric

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 15, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 14.


AC: 19 Fort: 14 Reflex: 13 Will: 18
HP: 37 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 9

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +5, History +5, Insight +10, Heal +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Arcana, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +5, Intimidate +3, Nature +5, Perception +5, Stealth, Streetwise +3, Thievery, Athletics +2

FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Shield Proficiency: Light
Level 2: Dwarven Weapon Training

POWERS
Channel Divinity: Healer's Mercy
Cleric at-will 1: Sonnlinor's Hammer
Cleric at-will 1: Brand of the Sun
Cleric encounter 1: Sun Burst
Cleric daily 1: Nimbus of Holy Shielding
Cleric utility 2: Angelic Witnesses
Cleric encounter 3: Resurgent Sun

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Light Shield, Dwarven Chainmail +1, Healer's Brooch +1, Quick Waraxe +1
RITUALS
Gentle Repose, Comrades' Succor
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Similar to the previous poster, if you are happy enough with a relatively cookie cutter build, I would suggest the Essentials Warriorpriest, choosing the Sun aspect.

In heroic teir, they appear to me to be the masters of giving people extra saving throws. They are still very good healers too. What impesses me about essentials clerics is their stunning utility powers. They can pick up a great deal of healing via utility spells.

It is hard to marry up the idea of a sun worshiping dwarf. I find it fun though.

I have just started playing a Dwarf Cleric of Pelor "Durak Sunblind". He is from a deep dwarven hold, where many of them have barely even seen sunlight. The first time he does, he is dazzled by it, he just loves the outside world. He heads back into the dwarf hold and tries to tell everyone "You don't need to live underground, outside has fresh air, grass and best of all sunlight!". Naturally they all think he is very undwarfy. He persists at this, preaching on streetcorners etc, eventually his family try and honour-kill him as he shames them all with his "elfyness".

He is forced our of his home, intent to prove his sanity to his clan. He is utterly devoted to Pelor, who he believe has quite literally shown him the light and brough him out of that horrible underground 'prison'.

Unwise said:

I have just started playing a Dwarf Cleric of Pelor "Durak Sunblind". He is from a deep dwarven hold, where many of them have barely even seen sunlight. The first time he does, he is dazzled by it, he just loves the outside world. He heads back into the dwarf hold and tries to tell everyone "You don't need to live underground, outside has fresh air, grass and best of all sunlight!". Naturally they all think he is very undwarfy. He persists at this, preaching on streetcorners etc, eventually his family try and honour-kill him as he shames them all with his "elfyness".

He is forced our of his home, intent to prove his sanity to his clan. He is utterly devoted to Pelor, who he believe has quite literally shown him the light and brough him out of that horrible underground 'prison'.

Click to expand...

Very cool concept. This is how I build characters too -- mechanics first, and then ask "How could a character end up like that?"

I had to roll up a shardmind minstrel last night just so I could have a Shard Bard. It was a fun concept and even turned out pretty well.

In other words, you can make a solid character in so many ways. Don't worry about "perfect" or "Optimized" just make a good character and have fun. A Valorous Bard can be quite good and will work in melee well enough in the party you described.