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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dark_mage
    Hey U_K! Thanks for the quick reply!
    Must have just got lucky!

    The ideas for the books sound fantastic, can't wait to see the finished product.
    Whoa. Hold on there tiger. I can barely finish a book I have been working on for 2 years. Lets not get any hopes up of seeing these ideas come to fruition anytime soon.

    Although that said, once the partnership thing takes off I hope to start making some serious progress. But lets wait and see.

    I was wondering if you wouldn't mind discussing the Mesopotamian gods? I've been working to adapt them for my campaign, and would like to hear other opinions.
    What specifically about them did you wish to discuss? I'm always up for a chat on immortal matters.

  2. #72
    Aww, that's a shame, sounds like a very interesting work. Let's hope it does come to fruition eventually.


    Well, I'm mostly interested in background info and using them as part of the setting. I'm currently working in fleshing out my campaign, and I want a certain part of it to use the Mesopotamian gods. Is it ok if we continue this here, or should we do so elsewhere?

  3. #73
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    Hello again dark_mage!

    Quote Originally Posted by dark_mage
    Aww, that's a shame, sounds like a very interesting work. Let's hope it does come to fruition eventually.
    Fingers crossed.

    Well, I'm mostly interested in background info and using them as part of the setting. I'm currently working in fleshing out my campaign, and I want a certain part of it to use the Mesopotamian gods. Is it ok if we continue this here, or should we do so elsewhere?
    Its fine here, someone else may benefit from the conversation.

    In our campaign, one of the major countries had the Mesopotamian gods as their main pantheon.

    So Anu was the state religion, while the Cult of Druaga was an outlawed organisation working with devils.

    This cult was the spiritual arm of a military body known as the Darksword Knights who were a bunch of Dragon Riding Soldiers (or at least their leaders/upper echelons rode dragons). The dragon link was indirectly something to do with Tiamat.

    These guys became one of the main villains of our campaign for a while. In effect an evil counterpart to the Thrinian Knights my character had formed.

    We had several run ins with Druaga himself.

    1. Back when 3 PCs were quasi-deities we destroyed his temple and he appeared.
    2. Thrin (Demigod) was forced to appear to save a bunch of Thrinian Knights from certain defeat by the Darksword Knights. That allowed a buffed Druaga to appear and I think Thrin may have had to retreat - my memory is sketchy on that one.
    3. Thrin's (Lesser God) personal assault on Druaga's greatest temple - Thrin killed Druaga and then followed his Astral Cord back to the Nine Hells and killed him again...then had Odin track his soul body and Thrin went to kill him again.

  4. #74
    Hi again U_K!

    Those sounds like some very interesting ideas. I take it you used the "canon" version from previous D&D products?

    Ok, so here's where I stand: as I mentioned earlier, I wanted to have certain region of my campaign world worship the Mesopotamian gods. So naturally I turned to look at previous conversions, and found the 1e Legends & Lore and PS' On Hallowed Ground, but I found several problems with the way they presented the pantheon:
    1. First, presenting the Sumerian and Babylonian gods as separate pantheons. AFAICT, they essentially worshipped the same gods, with perhaps several minor changes.
    2. From reseraching arund a bit, found out both Dahak and Druaga were characters of Zoroastrian, not Babylonian, mythos.
    3. Having Ki and Ninhursag as different deities, AFAIK they were different names for the same goddess.
    4. Killing off Enki (that's more PS's doing, and easily retconned though)
    5. Finally, some (IMO) conflicting alignments, more accurately Inanna as LE and especially Utu as CG, what with him beign the god of Justice and Law.

    So I've been torn between using a mash up from both pantheons using their 1e portfolios, using the version presented in Dragon #329, or starting over from scratch. And seeing about the work you've been doing regarding deities and Immortals, I'd like to hear your opinion on that respect, or what version of the pantheon you used. I'm trying to keep my campaign consistent, as much as possible, with Planescape canon, so I'm looking for some kind of compromise, and I'm using 3.5 rules, so domains are a reason of concern too.

    Thanks!

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dark_mage
    Hi again U_K!
    Howdy dark_mage!

    Those sounds like some very interesting ideas. I take it you used the "canon" version from previous D&D products?
    We used 1st Ed AD&D Legends & Lore...with a bit of house rule tinkering.

    For instance I recall Druaga was a Level 20 Fighter which in our campaign gave him 4 attacks/round, plus he added his Strength bonus to his fixed mace damage for 49 damage per hit even in an Anti-Magic Shell.

    Ok, so here's where I stand: as I mentioned earlier, I wanted to have certain region of my campaign world worship the Mesopotamian gods. So naturally I turned to look at previous conversions, and found the 1e Legends & Lore and PS' On Hallowed Ground, but I found several problems with the way they presented the pantheon:
    My first suggestion would be to buy Pantheons of the Megaverse on ebay.

    I recently reviewed the book on my website.

    Review: Pantheons of the Megaverse Eternity Publishing

    It includes a Mesopotamian Pantheon that contains elements of Babylonian and Sumerian.

    1. First, presenting the Sumerian and Babylonian gods as separate pantheons. AFAICT, they essentially worshipped the same gods, with perhaps several minor changes.
    Indeed. It should be one Pantheon.

    2. From reseraching arund a bit, found out both Dahak and Druaga were characters of Zoroastrian, not Babylonian, mythos.
    I didn't understand why they had Dahak in there myself, they should have just reprinted Tiamat's stats.

    3. Having Ki and Ninhursag as different deities, AFAIK they were different names for the same goddess.
    In a few cases it sometimes pays to create two seperate deities in this manner, but only if the versions are significantly different.

    4. Killing off Enki (that's more PS's doing, and easily retconned though)
    I always liked him.

    5. Finally, some (IMO) conflicting alignments, more accurately Inanna as LE and especially Utu as CG, what with him beign the god of Justice and Law.
    There was something in one of the Greyhawk Boxed set books that suggested Gods don't need to follow the alignment constraints the same as mortals.

    So for instance you could have Chaotic Neutral gods with Paladin Levels and so forth.

    So I've been torn between using a mash up from both pantheons using their 1e portfolios, using the version presented in Dragon #329, or starting over from scratch. And seeing about the work you've been doing regarding deities and Immortals, I'd like to hear your opinion on that respect, or what version of the pantheon you used. I'm trying to keep my campaign consistent, as much as possible, with Planescape canon, so I'm looking for some kind of compromise, and I'm using 3.5 rules, so domains are a reason of concern too.
    Well I would always use my version as so far not presented in any book.

    My current version suggests the deities I was planning to detail were:

    Villainous Gods

    Apsu + Mummu
    Tiamat + Kingu
    Ereshkigal + Nergal & Annunaki
    Anshar/Kishar + Druaga (I had to put Druaga in there)
    Anu + Ki + Ningishzida
    Enlil + Ninlil + Huwawa

    Unvillainous Gods
    Marduk + Tablets of destiny
    Enki
    Ishtar + Tammuz
    Shamash + Girru + Mesharu
    Ninurta + Zu + Nanna
    ...and one other I won't reveal.

    Heroes

    Gilgamesh
    Enkidu
    Adapa
    Shulgi

  6. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust View Post
    Howdy dark_mage!
    Hi U_K!

    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust View Post
    We used 1st Ed AD&D Legends & Lore...with a bit of house rule tinkering.

    For instance I recall Druaga was a Level 20 Fighter which in our campaign gave him 4 attacks/round, plus he added his Strength bonus to his fixed mace damage for 49 damage per hit even in an Anti-Magic Shell.
    Well, right now that's not very high in my priorities list, since I don't plan to have my players fight any gods...yet


    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust View Post
    My first suggestion would be to buy Pantheons of the Megaverse on ebay.

    I recently reviewed the book on my website.

    Review: Pantheons of the Megaverse Eternity Publishing

    It includes a Mesopotamian Pantheon that contains elements of Babylonian and Sumerian.

    I'll try and get ahold of it then



    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust View Post
    I didn't understand why they had Dahak in there myself, they should have just reprinted Tiamat's stats.
    Speaking of Dahak, I recalled that Paizo is using him (and Apsu) as stand-ins for Tiamat/Bahamut in PF. I was thinking of maybe retconning them into the Mesopotamian pantheon, with perhaps some changes, soemthing like this: After Tiamat's defeat against Marduk (I'm assuming the D&D Tiamat is the same as the Babylonian one, PF's Gods and Magic does a nice meshing of myths in that regard) she "retires" from the pantheon, leaving her son Dahak to take her place and wreak revenge on the gods. Regarding Apsu, I'm thinking of him beign an alias/aspect of Bahamut, intervening to curb Dahak's destruction as part of Bahamut's continued struggle against Tiamat. Since the real Apsu was killed eons ago by Enki/Ea, the name was "free" for the raking, and is the identity Bahamut uses when dealing with followers of the Mesopotamian pantheon. Whew!

    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust View Post
    In a few cases it sometimes pays to create two seperate deities in this manner, but only if the versions are significantly different.
    Perhaps, but in this case they were not very different IMO: Ki was the goddess of nature, Ninhursag was the goddess of Earth. I might end up using their Babylonian version (Belet-ili)


    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust View Post
    I always liked him.
    Too bad, he's dead! LOL, at least that was the way depicted in PS canon. They opted to have both pantheons hostile to each other, and Enki was murdered by Anshar and Nergal. Again, I think this is something easily retoconned, or else he could be replaced by his Babylonian "doppleganger", Ea ^^


    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust View Post
    There was something in one of the Greyhawk Boxed set books that suggested Gods don't need to follow the alignment constraints the same as mortals.

    So for instance you could have Chaotic Neutral gods with Paladin Levels and so forth.
    I remember seeing it in Legends & Lore, but perhaps it was also present in other sources. Regardless, I'm not too concerned by a Chaotic god having paladin levels, rather by (for example) a god who's supposed to represent Justice and Law having a Chaotic alignment.
    (And no, I'm not going to do away with alignments, I liek them too much, even with all the issues they represent )

    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust View Post
    Well I would always use my version as so far not presented in any book.

    My current version suggests the deities I was planning to detail were:

    Villainous Gods

    Apsu + Mummu
    Tiamat + Kingu
    Ereshkigal + Nergal & Annunaki
    Anshar/Kishar + Druaga (I had to put Druaga in there)
    Anu + Ki + Ningishzida
    Enlil + Ninlil + Huwawa

    Unvillainous Gods
    Marduk + Tablets of destiny
    Enki
    Ishtar + Tammuz
    Shamash + Girru + Mesharu
    Ninurta + Zu + Nanna
    ...and one other I won't reveal.

    Heroes

    Gilgamesh
    Enkidu
    Adapa
    Shulgi
    Ok, I have some doubts but first something that wasn't too clear to me. By villianous gods, you mean you intend them to be "evil"

    What status would you give to the heroes? Just powerful mortals? or are they going into hero-deity status?

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by dark_mage
    Hi U_K!
    Howdy amigo!

    Well, right now that's not very high in my priorities list, since I don't plan to have my players fight any gods...yet
    Always time for that later.

    I'll try and get ahold of it then
    Great book.

    Speaking of Dahak, I recalled that Paizo is using him (and Apsu) as stand-ins for Tiamat/Bahamut in PF.

    ...or they could just make their own versions of Tiamat and Bahamut.

    I was thinking of maybe retconning them into the Mesopotamian pantheon, with perhaps some changes, soemthing like this: After Tiamat's defeat against Marduk (I'm assuming the D&D Tiamat is the same as the Babylonian one, PF's Gods and Magic does a nice meshing of myths in that regard) she "retires" from the pantheon, leaving her son Dahak to take her place and wreak revenge on the gods. Regarding Apsu, I'm thinking of him beign an alias/aspect of Bahamut, intervening to curb Dahak's destruction as part of Bahamut's continued struggle against Tiamat. Since the real Apsu was killed eons ago by Enki/Ea, the name was "free" for the raking, and is the identity Bahamut uses when dealing with followers of the Mesopotamian pantheon. Whew!
    ...wait until you read the take on these characters from Pantheons of the Megaverse before deciding.

    Perhaps, but in this case they were not very different IMO: Ki was the goddess of nature, Ninhursag was the goddess of Earth. I might end up using their Babylonian version (Belet-ili)
    Indde, but just look at things on a case by case basis.

    Too bad, he's dead! LOL, at least that was the way depicted in PS canon. They opted to have both pantheons hostile to each other, and Enki was murdered by Anshar and Nergal. Again, I think this is something easily retoconned, or else he could be replaced by his Babylonian "doppleganger", Ea ^^
    He's the god of magic, maybe he cloned himself.

    I remember seeing it in Legends & Lore, but perhaps it was also present in other sources. Regardless, I'm not too concerned by a Chaotic god having paladin levels, rather by (for example) a god who's supposed to represent Justice and Law having a Chaotic alignment.
    (And no, I'm not going to do away with alignments, I liek them too much, even with all the issues they represent )
    I like my 3E alignments too...though I prefer 4E's planes.

    Ok, I have some doubts but first something that wasn't too clear to me. By villianous gods, you mean you intend them to be "evil"
    For those like Anu and Enlil I mean more Antagonists than outright 'evil'. A bit like Hera in Greek myth.

    What status would you give to the heroes? Just powerful mortals? or are they going into hero-deity status?
    The plan was for them to be Epic Player Characters (and NPCs).

  8. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust View Post
    Howdy amigo!
    Hii! ^^

    Always time for that later.
    Ayup!

    Great book.
    Indeed, got an acquaintance to lend it to me while I wait for my copy to arrive. Good stuf, surprisingly PS friendly too!

    Speaking of Dahak, I recalled that Paizo is using him (and Apsu) as stand-ins for Tiamat/Bahamut in PF.

    ...or they could just make their own versions of Tiamat and Bahamut.
    They kinda left it open to interpretation, taking some elements from the Enuma Elish, with (open to interpretation by the GM, of course) Apsu and Tiamat beign the first 2 gods. Dahak was one of their sons, and he turned into a destructive force, killing and tormenting mortals. Apsu came and battled him, but Tiamat betrayed him to heal Dahak, and Apsu was defeated and fled to the Material Plane where he continues to make a stand against his son and his spawn, the Chromatic dragons.

    James Jacobs admitted to not wanting to "reimagine" Tiamat, as he is quite fond of the D&D version and prefers to leave it open fot individual GM's to use her.

    ...wait until you read the take on these characters from Pantheons of the Megaverse before deciding.
    Yes, that WAS something. I can't get the image of Apsu as Eldritch Abomination out of my head . Also, their version of Tiamat is surprisingly compatible with the D&D one. What do you think of this? Perhaps he shares a fate with other Elder beigns like Cronus, Uranus and Tharizdun (Cronus is imprisoned in Carceri, while Uranus id presumed dead. Tharizdun is imprisoned in a special Demiplane in the Deep Ethereal. Apsu coudl be dead, his divine corpse floating throuh the Astral, or perhaps he is imprisoned in one of the lost caverns of Agathion, in Pandemonium). Tiamat was his consort, and she was defeated by Marduk. Although she survived, she was left weakened enough she was "demoted" to Lesser deity status. She took her leave from the Mesopotamian Pantheon, turning to the prime world of Krynn, where, under the name of Takhisis, she managed to regain much of her power, climbing back to the ranks of Greater goddess. On Krynn is also where she ran afoul of Paladine/Bahamut, sparking an enmity that has extended to the present day across multiple planes and worlds.
    What do you think?

    Indde, but just look at things on a case by case basis.
    I will, though IMO having both active seems redundant.

    He's the god of magic, maybe he cloned himself.
    Perhaps!

    I like my 3E alignments too...though I prefer 4E's planes.
    Well, PS is my second favourite campaign setting, so I'm sticking with it. That's the main reason I want to stick with PS canon as much as possible.

    What is your opinion on the alignments of the pantheon as presented in L&L?

    For those like Anu and Enlil I mean more Antagonists than outright 'evil'. A bit like Hera in Greek myth.
    Yea, that's what I meant, I did find it a bit strange seing both of them in an antagonistic role. What led you to that conclusion?

    The plan was for them to be Epic Player Characters (and NPCs).
    Figured as much . I'm also toying with the idea of integrating Gilgamesh into the pantheon as a Demigod, but as someone else pointed out to me, making him immortal would completely miss the point of his story. Then again, I'm thinking of giving him the Heracles treatment, beign elevated to godhood after his death, after all, he was already 67% god, wasn't he?

    Here's some changes to the pantheon I though of while reading Pantheons of the Megaverse, I'd like to know what you think of them:
    -Anshar (Lesser god): former king of the gods and father of Anu, now bitter and spiteful for losing his position and beign relegated as a minor member of the pantheon.
    -Anu (Intermediate god): King of the gods after Anshar, abdicated in favor of Enlil as he grew disinterested in mortal afairs. Now counsels Marduk in his role as King of the gods.
    -Dahak (Demigod): AKA Kingu/Kingsu, Tiamat's son, who led the demonic forces arranged against the Annunaki. After his and Tiamat's defeat, he was cast down into the Wells of Darkness in the Abyss, trapping him. With the weakening of the Mesopotamian pantheon, he has managed to reach beyond his prison, exerting some influence and attracting priests to his worship.
    -Druaga (Greater god?): In this case, I'm coming from the fact that Druaga was an alias of the Zoroastrian Ahriman/Angra Manyu, along with the two serpents myth from Guide to Hell, making him an alias/aspect of Asmodeus, explaining his mastery over Devils. Asmodeus is working under this alias to increase his power/influence without drawing the attention of his nemesis, Jazirian/Ahura Mazda
    -Enlil (Intermediate god): King of the gods after Anu, he abdicated in favour of Marduk as part of a deal when Marduk took care of Tiamat and her hordes. Still present in advisor position to Marduk.
    -Enki (Intermediate or Greater god?): Killed/sealed Apsu and fathered Marduk to face Tiamat. Could be considered Marduk's vizier, god of knowledge, magic and water, with a soft spot for humanity (I'll just ignore the part where he was killed ^^)
    -Girru (Lesser god): Not much change here, I think. A good god, unflinching in his crusade against evil.
    -Ishtar (Greater goddess): the immensely popular goddess of love and war. Probably going by the book on this one too ^^
    -Ki (Greater goddess): Goddess of nature and the earth, has kept herself pretty much aloof of the godly politics, tending to her charges.
    -Marduk (Greater god): Crowned as King of the gods as part of a gambit by his father Enki after he beat back Tiamat and his hordes. The god of rulership and civilization.
    -Nanna/Sin/Nanna-Sin? (Lesser god): A fickle yet good natured deity, not caring much for the edicts of Enlil, the situation that did not change with Marduk's rise to power. Still he is an unflinching foe of evil, and will rally to calls to fight back any threat ot the pantheon and its worshippers.
    -Nergal & Ereshkigal (Lesser and Intermadiate god, respectively): The gods of death, destruction and the underworld. They remained a neutral party during the war against Tiamat. They still maintain and adversarial relationship to the rest of the pantheon (Nergal particulary like to antagonize Marduk)
    -Ramman (Lesser god): God of storms and thunder. Again I don't think much tinkering is necessary here.
    -Utu (Intermediate god): God of the sun. I'm debating wether to leave him CG, or switch him to LG and drop his realm in Mechanus ^^

    So, what do you think so far? Suggestions and feedback are greatly appreciated

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by dark_mage
    Hii! ^^
    Hello there dark_mage!

    Indeed, got an acquaintance to lend it to me while I wait for my copy to arrive. Good stuf, surprisingly PS friendly too!
    Excellent - glad you like it.

    They kinda left it open to interpretation, taking some elements from the Enuma Elish, with (open to interpretation by the GM, of course) Apsu and Tiamat beign the first 2 gods. Dahak was one of their sons, and he turned into a destructive force, killing and tormenting mortals. Apsu came and battled him, but Tiamat betrayed him to heal Dahak, and Apsu was defeated and fled to the Material Plane where he continues to make a stand against his son and his spawn, the Chromatic dragons.

    James Jacobs admitted to not wanting to "reimagine" Tiamat, as he is quite fond of the D&D version and prefers to leave it open fot individual GM's to use her.
    I can sort of understand him not wanting to reimagine Tiamat.

    Yes, that WAS something. I can't get the image of Apsu as Eldritch Abomination out of my head .
    Didn't I tell you.

    That book is tremendous.

    Also, their version of Tiamat is surprisingly compatible with the D&D one. What do you think of this? Perhaps he shares a fate with other Elder beigns like Cronus, Uranus and Tharizdun (Cronus is imprisoned in Carceri, while Uranus id presumed dead. Tharizdun is imprisoned in a special Demiplane in the Deep Ethereal. Apsu coudl be dead, his divine corpse floating throuh the Astral, or perhaps he is imprisoned in one of the lost caverns of Agathion, in Pandemonium). Tiamat was his consort, and she was defeated by Marduk. Although she survived, she was left weakened enough she was "demoted" to Lesser deity status. She took her leave from the Mesopotamian Pantheon, turning to the prime world of Krynn, where, under the name of Takhisis, she managed to regain much of her power, climbing back to the ranks of Greater goddess. On Krynn is also where she ran afoul of Paladine/Bahamut, sparking an enmity that has extended to the present day across multiple planes and worlds.

    What do you think?
    Not bad at all.

    In one of my books somewhere I mention that each Pantheon has a Godslayer (Intermediate Level) a Cosmic Afterbirth/Dragon (Greater Deity) and a Pantheon Destroyer (Elder God).

    For the Mesopotamian Gods these clearly translate to Kingu, Tiamat and Apsu.

    I will, though IMO having both active seems redundant.
    True but often there is a lot of cross pantheon deities (such as the gods of Canaan and Mesopotamia).

    Well, PS is my second favourite campaign setting, so I'm sticking with it. That's the main reason I want to stick with PS canon as much as possible.

    What is your opinion on the alignments of the pantheon as presented in L&L?
    The main overall alignment trend of any Pantheon is always the same as its Figurehead.

    In this case the LN Anu.

    Yea, that's what I meant, I did find it a bit strange seing both of them in an antagonistic role. What led you to that conclusion?
    Pantheons of the Megaverse.

    Figured as much . I'm also toying with the idea of integrating Gilgamesh into the pantheon as a Demigod, but as someone else pointed out to me, making him immortal would completely miss the point of his story. Then again, I'm thinking of giving him the Heracles treatment, beign elevated to godhood after his death, after all, he was already 67% god, wasn't he?
    I think using them as simply Epic PCs/NPCs is the best way. Most heroes have a journey and who is to say how far along that journey they are when 'we' encounter them.

    Here's some changes to the pantheon I though of while reading Pantheons of the Megaverse, I'd like to know what you think of them:

    -Anshar (Lesser god): former king of the gods and father of Anu, now bitter and spiteful for losing his position and beign relegated as a minor member of the pantheon.

    -Anu (Intermediate god): King of the gods after Anshar, abdicated in favor of Enlil as he grew disinterested in mortal afairs. Now counsels Marduk in his role as King of the gods.

    -Dahak (Demigod): AKA Kingu/Kingsu, Tiamat's son, who led the demonic forces arranged against the Annunaki. After his and Tiamat's defeat, he was cast down into the Wells of Darkness in the Abyss, trapping him. With the weakening of the Mesopotamian pantheon, he has managed to reach beyond his prison, exerting some influence and attracting priests to his worship.

    -Druaga (Greater god?): In this case, I'm coming from the fact that Druaga was an alias of the Zoroastrian Ahriman/Angra Manyu, along with the two serpents myth from Guide to Hell, making him an alias/aspect of Asmodeus, explaining his mastery over Devils. Asmodeus is working under this alias to increase his power/influence without drawing the attention of his nemesis, Jazirian/Ahura Mazda

    -Enlil (Intermediate god): King of the gods after Anu, he abdicated in favour of Marduk as part of a deal when Marduk took care of Tiamat and her hordes. Still present in advisor position to Marduk.

    -Enki (Intermediate or Greater god?): Killed/sealed Apsu and fathered Marduk to face Tiamat. Could be considered Marduk's vizier, god of knowledge, magic and water, with a soft spot for humanity (I'll just ignore the part where he was killed ^^)

    -Girru (Lesser god): Not much change here, I think. A good god, unflinching in his crusade against evil.

    -Ishtar (Greater goddess): the immensely popular goddess of love and war. Probably going by the book on this one too ^^

    -Ki (Greater goddess): Goddess of nature and the earth, has kept herself pretty much aloof of the godly politics, tending to her charges.

    -Marduk (Greater god): Crowned as King of the gods as part of a gambit by his father Enki after he beat back Tiamat and his hordes. The god of rulership and civilization.

    -Nanna/Sin/Nanna-Sin? (Lesser god): A fickle yet good natured deity, not caring much for the edicts of Enlil, the situation that did not change with Marduk's rise to power. Still he is an unflinching foe of evil, and will rally to calls to fight back any threat ot the pantheon and its worshippers.

    -Nergal & Ereshkigal (Lesser and Intermadiate god, respectively): The gods of death, destruction and the underworld. They remained a neutral party during the war against Tiamat. They still maintain and adversarial relationship to the rest of the pantheon (Nergal particulary like to antagonize Marduk)

    -Ramman (Lesser god): God of storms and thunder. Again I don't think much tinkering is necessary here.

    -Utu (Intermediate god): God of the sun. I'm debating wether to leave him CG, or switch him to LG and drop his realm in Mechanus ^^

    So, what do you think so far? Suggestions and feedback are greatly appreciated
    When I'm building a Pantheon I usually try to set it up so that there are 9 Intermediate Deities (one of each alignment) and 9 Lesser deities (one of each alignment).

    The Godslayer, Cosmic Afterbirth and Pantheon Destroyer are not counted as part of the Pantheon itself.

    So planning out the evil deities first you probably want:

    Anshar & Druaga = LE
    Ereshkigal & Nergal = NE

    I'll have to hunt out my notes again to see who I had for the Chaotic Evil positions.

    The key for this Pantheon is the Anu - Enlil - Marduk relationship. Which is why I like the Pantheons of the Megaverse versions.

  10. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust View Post
    Hello there dark_mage!
    `Sup U_K! Thank you for your continued attention!

    Excellent - glad you like it.
    Yup! Thanks for the tip! I'm sure I'll put that to good use!

    I can sort of understand him not wanting to reimagine Tiamat.
    Me too, I actually intend to make my homebrew an hybrid of Pathfinder material and previos edition canon (up to 3e, though I'm planning in taking some things from the Feywild and Shadwofell)

    Didn't I tell you.
    That book is tremendous.
    Yeah! Too bad it's not d20 ^^

    The paralels between Apsu and Uranus led me to think about a "category" of Elder beigns, Proto-Titans if you will, more Eldrtich Abominations than proper gods. I'll scour other mythologies when I have time for other potential members.

    Speaking of which, what is your take on the general origin of gods? I remember reading somewhere, not sure ATM but I think it was a PS book, about a "rumor" that most, if not all, the human gods were humans who ascended a long time ago, so long that they've almost forgotten about their past selves. Sounds interesting to me but I'm not sure if I will consider it for my Campaign.


    Not bad at all.

    In one of my books somewhere I mention that each Pantheon has a Godslayer (Intermediate Level) a Cosmic Afterbirth/Dragon (Greater Deity) and a Pantheon Destroyer (Elder God).

    For the Mesopotamian Gods these clearly translate to Kingu, Tiamat and Apsu.
    Interesting, but what is the criteria you use to designate each one? What makes one a Cosmic Afterbirth and not a Pantheon DEstroyer?

    True but often there is a lot of cross pantheon deities (such as the gods of Canaan and Mesopotamia).
    Point taken. In this case and since I want to keep some continuity with Planescape canon, I'm thinking of having the "new" Earth goddess, Belet-ili, be a result of the merging of Ki and Ninhursag.

    The main overall alignment trend of any Pantheon is always the same as its Figurehead.

    In this case the LN Anu.
    What I meant is that if you thought any of the alignment choices for the pantheon in L&L were innapropiate.

    Pantheons of the Megaverse.
    Perhaps I need to give it a second reading, but I failed to see how Enlil and Anu can be considered Antagonistic (barring Anu's almost-but-not-quite-a-Cosmic-Horror traits)


    I think using them as simply Epic PCs/NPCs is the best way. Most heroes have a journey and who is to say how far along that journey they are when 'we' encounter them.
    Perhaps. I was thinking of them baing at least DR 0, from the 3e Deities & Demigods, as I recall it beign the "default" DR for godly scions. What I'm not sure is if DR:0, aka Hero-deity status, grants immortality or not.

    Besides, if I'm not mistaken, Heracles was ascended into full godhood after his death, wasn't he? I imagined something similar could have happened to Gilgamesh.

    When I'm building a Pantheon I usually try to set it up so that there are 9 Intermediate Deities (one of each alignment) and 9 Lesser deities (one of each alignment).

    The Godslayer, Cosmic Afterbirth and Pantheon Destroyer are not counted as part of the Pantheon itself.

    So planning out the evil deities first you probably want:

    Anshar & Druaga = LE
    Ereshkigal & Nergal = NE

    I'll have to hunt out my notes again to see who I had for the Chaotic Evil positions.

    The key for this Pantheon is the Anu - Enlil - Marduk relationship. Which is why I like the Pantheons of the Megaverse versions.
    Whoa! That means you'll have 21+ deities in the pantheon! How many Greater deities do you place, or do you leave the Greater status solely to the Head of the Pantheon?

    In this case, I did not set myself to fulfill some quota, I merely took the gods as they were presented in L&L and On Hallowed Ground, and went from the assumption that Marduk was now the Head of the Pantheon. I took it to mean most of the other gods "donated" some status to him, making him one of only 3 Greater deities in the pantheon; the other two were Belet-ili (her origins, plus she kept herself pretty much isolated from godly politics, and her status and worship as Earth Goddess were enough to secure her rank) and Ishtar (as a wildly popular deity, I assumed the size of her worship would be enough to keep her in Greater rank). The rest of the deities markes as Greater were "demoted" to Intermediate, and the Lesser were kept as is.

    I'm curious as to which other deities, and in which aligments, would you include for the pantheon. Off the top of my head, I got 13 and that's counting Dahak/Kingu, whom you won't be considering as part of the pantheon.

    I'd also like to know what you make of the Anu-Enlil-Marduk relationship.

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