Tension in combat

mudlock · Dec 21, 2010

A line from the assassin design diary caught my eye:

"With D&D combat, the tension is highest at the beginning of the fight (when players and monsters have a full array of resources) and lowest near the end (when players are out of resources and monsters are dwindling)."

Other than this new death strike ability (which seems like it would be very un-smooth in play until you've properly trained your DM: "23 damage! Or 33, from a certain point of view...") there are only a few abilities that try to directly address this known problem. (Which consist of just a few powers that can only be used on, or are more effective against, bloodied enemies, or when you're bloodied.)

My question is: if this is a known issue, why aren't there more powers like this?

Someone on these forums had a house rule, something along the lines of "you can't attack a creature with an encounter power until you've attacked it a few times with an at-will," or something like that, which also seeks to smooth out the tension from it's current front-loaded position. And obviously DMs can always throw reinforcements in to a fight to keep it interesting (or use monsters with strong "when bloodied" powers). But it would be nice to see more instances of resources which the PCs--and monsters--only get access to later in a fight (or even, later in the adventuring day). WotC acknowledges it, so maybe it's something we can expect more of in the future.

What do you think? What do you do, as a DM or even as a player, to keep tension high throughout?

KahnyaGnorc · Dec 21, 2010

If an encounter has monsters of differing power levels, hide which monsters are more powerful and which are less so (esp minions). However, that only delays the big hits (or risks using the big hits on minions or weaker foes, instead of the stronger ones) a little.

Another idea, which you hit on partially, is to have a secondary resource. Martial Characters could call it Combo Points, Divine ones Divine Favor, Psychic call it Focus, Arcane/Primal casters Mana, Barbarians rage, etc. Each At-Will Power gives 1 point of these resources, and Encounter Powers require a certain number of points to execute.

A third idea is empowering the remaining monsters later in the fight. A big brute could gain a, for a lack of a better term, Momentum power as the fight goes on (going from a normal or elite creature to an elite or solo creature, for example). You could also use a form of the Inverse Ninja Law (the fewer there are, the more power the remaining become). You could mix and match these types with other types, like getting more powerful when Bloodied and using waves, to keep the opposition powerful even as the fight goes on. Then, mix in with traditional encounters that don't use these, but with the PCs not knowing which are the "more powerful later" fights and which are traditional ones.

mudlock · Dec 21, 2010

KahnyaGnorc said:
Another idea, which you hit on partially, is to have a secondary resource. Martial Characters could call it Combo Points

I think that a class based around an idea like this could be a lot of fun. The thief or assassin would have been an excellent place to try something like this.

On the other hand, I don't know if I could deal with more "DnD is WoW" (or "DnD is Diablo") haters

KahnyaGnorc said:
A third idea is empowering the remaining monsters later in the fight. A big brute could gain a, for a lack of a better term, Momentum power as the fight goes on (going from a normal or elite creature to an elite or solo creature, for example). You could also use a form of the Inverse Ninja Law (the fewer there are, the more power the remaining become).

Two great ideas. The first, I think, could easily be written up as a monster template (automatically making it an elite, only with back-loaded elite-ness), and simply be an alternative to rechargeable/triggered powers. The second... could also be a template, just one that is applied on-the-fly to the last-one-standing (or last-to-be-bloodied) of a group of monsters.

Elites, being more survivable, can be a great way to keep tension up. But only, I think, if more of them "powered up" more dramatically when bloodied.

GRStrayton · Dec 21, 2010

I have house rules to address this issue (which we've been using for a couple of years now). Essentially, you can only use a particular encounter power 3 times per day (6 times per day if the encounter power comes with 2 uses per encounter), but you can buy back extra uses of an encounter power using healing surges at a rate of 1 encounter power per surge. There's a little more to it, but those are the basics. For the full rundown on that house rules (and the others we use), you can check out the blog:

Legends & Labyrinths

It's "House Rules" under "Core L&L" on the upper right. It's been working well for my three groups, but it all depends on your particular preference for the feel of your game. If it's not for you, maybe it'll at least spark some ideas to get what you want.

KahnyaGnorc · Dec 22, 2010

mudlock said:
I think that a class based around an idea like this could be a lot of fun. The thief or assassin would have been an excellent place to try something like this.

On the other hand, I don't know if I could deal with more "DnD is WoW" (or "DnD is Diablo") haters

Well, I had a rough idea of using the Lord of the Rings Online Warden's Gambit mechanic in D&D. This type of character would have three At-Will Powers and a larger choice of Encounter Powers. However, to use an Encounter Power, you'd have to execute a combination of At-Wills. (To use an example from LotRO, Safeguard, a self-healing ability, requires a Shield attack, a Weapon attack, then a second Shield attack to execute)

Two great ideas. The first, I think, could easily be written up as a monster template (automatically making it an elite, only with back-loaded elite-ness), and simply be an alternative to rechargeable/triggered powers. The second... could also be a template, just one that is applied on-the-fly to the last-one-standing (or last-to-be-bloodied) of a group of monsters.

Elites, being more survivable, can be a great way to keep tension up. But only, I think, if more of them "powered up" more dramatically when bloodied.

I think the best way to prevent the whole "Blow your Encounter Powers at the Beginning and Make the Ecounter Anti-Climactic" is to keep your players' on their toes and guessing. Nothing like a player using up their most powerful attack, and realize it was against a minion, as opposed to the elite one square over!

(Psi)SeveredHead · Dec 22, 2010

All I can say is, that's one reason I try to give monsters recharge when bloodied abilities, and deny PCs action points at day's beginning. (You have to go through at least one encounter before you can bag any. Also stops PCs from trying to alpha strike bosses first thing in the morning.)

Dausuul · Dec 22, 2010

mudlock said:
I think that a class based around an idea like this could be a lot of fun. The thief or assassin would have been an excellent place to try something like this.

Have you ever played "Iron Heroes?" It used this mechanic all over the place. Most of the classes had a "token pool," which you could charge up by doing appropriate things. The berserker charged up his token pool by hitting stuff and taking damage; the weapon master charged up by making attacks; the executioner charged up by patiently stalking a target; and so forth. The implementation was a bit clunky, but the idea was awesome.

Coincidentally, the guy who designed "Iron Heroes" is now the D&D brand manager... so there's a decent chance we could see something like this eventually. I wouldn't be surprised if the Essentials barbarian ended up with something along these lines.

RangerWickett · Dec 22, 2010

The Capcom vs. SNK games had a 'groove' system (as in, you have to 'get into the groove' of combat). You needed a full super bar to pull off a super move, and you could accrue up to 3 super bars are once, which would let you pull off a really impressive move.

Different types of grooves let you charge your super bar in different ways. One was when you hit, I think, and another was when you took damage. Another just went up with tmie. They also had a few different tricks -- parrying or dodging or rolling or whatever.

The basic groove system for 4e would be to make a new Striker class that get 1 groove point whenever they use a tier 1 power (equivalent to a normal at-will power). They can spend 1 point to use a tier 2 power (akin to an encounter power), or 2 points to use a tier 3 power (basically a daily power).

The Defender class might get 1 point the first time he's hit, 1 point the first time he's bloodied, and 1 at the start of each round thereafter if he was hit since his last turn.

At 5th level you earn double the normal of groove points (to represent how you've got more encounters and dailies to use). You get triple at 9th level. Quadruple at 20th level. Not sure how to do leaders or controllers.

I suppose it could work. Or maybe just every round of combat, your power ratchets up automatically, without needing to track points and stuff. That's easier to do, better I think. You end up with the beginning of combat feeling like a brawl, the middle of combat being a knife fight, and the end of combat a gun fight. And if the fight goes on too long, it turns into rocket tag.

I'm A Banana · Dec 22, 2010

Iron Heroes' Token System was one of the first, most interesting ways to keep the flow of combat.

For a quick-and-dirty cinematic way to affect the flow:

You can't use Encounter powers until after you or an ally has been bloodied, or an enemy has become bloodied in the combat.
You can't use Daily powers until after you spend an Action Point, or an enemy or ally has been reduced to 0 hp in the combat.

That's going to cause a few corner-case issues, so it's a good house rule, but not that great form a "always and everywhere" standpoint.

The major issue is that individual powers have been trying to solve this problem for a little while, but what we really need is a system-wide update, which, of course, is going to mess with the powers who have already started to work with it. A Daily power that persists for the entire combat is going to work differently if you can't use it right away, but it also wouldn't exist if combat wasn't so front-loaded to begin with so...

Basically, if you're not going to house-rule, just look for powers and abilities that solve the problem by themselves. Things with ongoing effects, things that cause something to happen even on a miss.

Mouseferatu · Dec 22, 2010

While I understand the intention behind some of these suggestions, I'd personally avoid any "you can't use encounter/daily powers until X occurs" house rules. I know that, as a player, if I saw the perfect opportunity for a specific power and wasn't permitted to use it because the DM felt the combat hadn't gone on long enough--by whatever measure he was using--the frustration would far outweigh any potential benefit.

What I'd suggest instead is house rules to encourage people to save their encounters/dailies for later in the fight, but that don't require it. Some ideas, off the top of my head...

1) Encounters/dailies gain a bonus to hit after you've been bloodied for the first time. Or, alternatively, after you've been bloodied, each time you use an encounter/daily power, you can make a roll to see if you can keep the power even though you've used it. (It would have to be a pretty difficult roll, but even the possibility would make saving those powers for later in the fight into an attractive option.)

2) Each round in which you use only at-will powers, you gain a cumulative +1 bonus to your next attack with an encounter/daily power (expires at the end of the encounter if not used).

3) If you've been bloodied and use an encounter power, you can choose to spend your second wind in that same turn as a move action instead of a standard. If you use a daily when bloodied, it's a minor instead.

Again, these are just a few spur-of-the-moment ideas, that I haven't even remotely examined for game balance. But they illustrate my point, which is "bonuses for delaying encounter/daily powers," rather than "forced to delay said powers."