Converting original D&D and Mystara monsters

Cleon

Legend

Okay, first question. Do we make them Tiny to fit the original 1' height, or increase the height to 2' and make them Small?

Their illustrations suggests a creature more halfling-size than cat-size, so I'm currently leaning towards Small.

EDIT:

Second question, are we calling them "Caymen" like in the Mystara Compendium (1994) or "Cayma" like in the Red Steel Compendium (1996) ?
 
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Mortis

First Post
Okay, first question. Do we make them Tiny to fit the original 1' height, or increase the height to 2' and make them Small?

Their illustrations suggests a creature more halfling-size than cat-size, so I'm currently leaning towards Small.
I guess it depends on the size of the bison it's riding. They've always struck me as being smaller than halflings. I'd prefer to keep them at 1 foot tall and make them tiny. For something different how about also doing a racial paragon type (prestige) class that allows them to become Small?

Regards
Mortis
 

Cleon

Legend
Updated.

Are we caught up on the Mystaran lizardfolk?

Have we got the Gator Men and Sis'thik converted?

I don't remember participating in a conversion of either of those lizard-kin, so is their a pre-Cleon conversion of them in the Creature Catalog?

A google search could only find a Vaults of Pandius conversion for the Gator Man and Sis'thik.

It's a real nuisance that the CC index is buggered up, but it looks like we might need to do our own.

EDIT: Yes, I know that the Red Steel entry says that Gurrash are also called "gator men", but the Mystaran Monstrous Compendium's "Gator Man" is a good deal tougher than a Gurrash - it's 7 HD & AC 3 versus 3 HD and AC 5, plus there's no mention of the Gurrash's special attacks (Tail-slap, Drown) and they have a different origin story as the result of "Evil Mages" hybridising lizard men with alligators.

That suggests that (mechanically, at least) the Gator Men have a similar relationship to Gurrash as Giant Crocodiles have to regular Crocodiles, since their HD relationship is the same (HD 7 vs HD 3).

Or, for an alternative view, the Gator Men are the Ogre-equivalent to the Gurrash Orc-equivalent.
 
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Cleon

Legend
Gator man = Gurrash which we've obviously just finished.

But, no I don't believe the CC has done the Sis'thik yet.

Regards
Mortis

Yes, I already mentioned the Gurrash is also called a Gator Man and there is a lot of overlap between the two, but the Mystaran Compendium / BECMI version of the Gator Man still has 4 more HD and a 2 point higher AC, plus a couple of other minor differences.

An easy solution is to say Gurrash can also advance by Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice, and become Large when they hit 7 HD. That would account for most of the mechanical differences.
 

Cleon

Legend
Getting back to the Caymen.

I guess it depends on the size of the bison it's riding.

Quoting the Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium "caymas live together in villages, herding aurochs (large, shaggy bison) and trading auroch meat and cinnabryl with the shazaks. Aurochs are about 6 feet tall at the shoulder"

Going by that Monstrous Compendium's accompanying illustration, if that bison is 6 foot at the shoulder, the Cayman riding it should stand a few inches under 3 feet tall, say 25-30. It's certainly a lot more than 12 inches tall!

They've always struck me as being smaller than halflings. I'd prefer to keep them at 1 foot tall and make them tiny. For something different how about also doing a racial paragon type (prestige) class that allows them to become Small?

Regards
Mortis

Well if we make them Small-sized 2 foot Humanoids like I suggested they will be smaller than an average halfling. :p

Anyhow, I don't mind making them Tiny if everyone wants them that way, but if we do that I think we should give them powerful build so they can wield Small spears.

That would match the 1d6 damage they do with their bok "javelins" according to the original stats. They are "incredibly tough for their size", so they could be strong as well as hardy.
 

Shade

Monster Junkie
Yes, I already mentioned the Gurrash is also called a Gator Man and there is a lot of overlap between the two, but the Mystaran Compendium / BECMI version of the Gator Man still has 4 more HD and a 2 point higher AC, plus a couple of other minor differences.

An easy solution is to say Gurrash can also advance by Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice, and become Large when they hit 7 HD. That would account for most of the mechanical differences.

That sounds like fun!

Well if we make them Small-sized 2 foot Humanoids like I suggested they will be smaller than an average halfling. :p

Anyhow, I don't mind making them Tiny if everyone wants them that way, but if we do that I think we should give them powerful build so they can wield Small spears.

I'm OK with either size, although I don't believe a Tiny lizarfolk exists as of yet, so it would fill a niche. ;)
 

Cleon

Legend
That sounds like fun!

Shall we modify the Gurrash slightly, then?

Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large) or by character class

The gurrash are a violent, warlike offshoot of the lizardfolk race. Gurrash spend their time hunting and making war within the unforgiving bayous they call home. Also known as "gator men", gurrash were created centuries ago by the evil spellcasters merging together regular lizardfolk with alligators (possibly with the addition of less wholesome creatures). They were intended to be powerful warrior-slaves for an empire that is now long dead, but proved vicious, intractable, and hard to predict. A few gurrash escaped and started to breed in the swamps, eventually becoming the reptilian scourge they are today.

I'm OK with either size, although I don't believe a Tiny lizarfolk exists as of yet, so it would fill a niche. ;)

Well as I said earlier, I don't mind Tiny but quite like Small.

Hmm, on one hand Tiny with powerful build would explain the Small daggers (1-3 damage) they use...

On the other hand, Small with Powerful Build would let them use Medium-sized javelins...

I'll leave it to you lot to decide, but I'm feeling another Cleon Special coming on! :p

Whichever way we go, we have to mention the Bison riding in the flavour text!
 

Cleon

Legend
Shall we modify the Gurrash slightly, then?

Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large) or by character class

The gurrash are a violent, warlike offshoot of the lizardfolk race. Gurrash spend their time hunting and making war within the unforgiving bayous they call home. Also known as "gator men", gurrash were created centuries ago by the evil spellcasters merging together regular lizardfolk with alligators (possibly with the addition of less wholesome creatures). They were intended to be powerful warrior-slaves for an empire that is now long dead, but proved vicious, intractable, and hard to predict. A few gurrash escaped and started to breed in the swamps, eventually becoming the reptilian scourge they are today.!

Upon reflection, I'd much rather keep the gurrash's "by character class" advancement and make the Gator Men (or should that be Gator Folk?) a separate strain. I suspect an entire new monster is hoping too much for you, so how about adding a sub entry.

Something like this:

Gurrash
Advancement: By character class

The gurrash are a violent, warlike offshoot of the lizardfolk race. Gurrash spend their time hunting and making war within the unforgiving bayous they call home. Also known as "gator men", gurrash were created centuries ago by evil spellcasters merging together regular lizardfolk with alligators. They were intended to be warrior-slaves for an empire that is now long dead. A few gurrash escaped and started to breed in the swamps, eventually becoming the reptilian scourge they are today.

Gator Folk
The gator folk are a brutish variety of gurrash lizardfolk. They are throwbacks to the gurrash's original lineages, when evil sorcery created the gurrash race by merging lizard folk with large alligators. Gator folk grow slowly throughout their lives like alligators do, and ancient gator folk can reach the size of ogres or small giants.

Gator folk are even more primitive and vicious than regular gurrash, but their culture is basically the same (including their hatred of shavak and demon worship). Gurrash and gator folk recognize each other as kin, and a gurrash tribe's relationship with a tribe of gator folk will be as good (or bad) as those with another tribe of gurrash, and vica versa. Gator folk tribes are usually ruled by clerics, who lead their people in horrible sacrifices to demonic beings.

Gator folk usually advance by humanoid hit dice (see below) and use crudely made greatswords as weapons instead of tridents. Those few gator folk with character class levels will generally be in control of their tribe. Gator folk have the following statistics, anything that is not noted is the same as regular gurrash lizardfolk.

Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d4+2) or greatsword +5 melee (2d6+3/19-20)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d4+2) and bite +2 melee (1d6+1) and tail slap +2 melee (2d4+3); or greatsword +5 melee (2d6+3/19-20) and bite +2 melee (1d6+1) and tail slap +2 melee (2d4+3)
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large)
 

Cleon

Legend

Oh, I also don't like the "A gurrash weighs upward of 800 pounds". That's fine for a Large-sized Gator Man, but seems too heavy for a Medium-sized Gurrash.

Regular lizard folk are almost as tall (6 to 7 foot) and only weigh 200-250 pounds. A 7 to 8 foot tall gurrash should weigh about 50% more, assuming similar proportions.

Revised proposal...

Gurrash
Advancement: By character class

This reptilian humanoid has dark green scales and an alligator-like head, with prominent sharp teeth and slitted red eyes.

The gurrash are a violent, warlike offshoot of the lizardfolk race. Gurrash spend their time hunting and making war within the unforgiving bayous they call home.

Also known as "gator men", gurrash were created centuries ago by evil spellcasters merging together regular lizardfolk with alligators. They were intended to be warrior-slaves for an empire that is now long dead. A few gurrash escaped and started to breed in the swamps, eventually becoming the reptilian scourge they are today.

Gurrash refuse to negotiate with strangers, preferring acts of aggression. These lizardfolk consider themselves the mortal enemies of shazaks, usually attacking them on sight. Gurrash will try to exterminate or drive away any shazaks who live near their homeland. They frequently war with other neighboring tribes, including other tribes of gurrash, but put their hatred of shazak above mere territorial rivalry.

Most gurrash worship demon lords, who sometimes grant gurrash tribes a lizard king leader. Gurrash tribes who share the same demonic patron usually have extremely good or bad relations - either cooperating very closely, or seizing any chance to murder their "heretical" neighbors.

Gurrash subsist on lizards, alligators, fish, and the occasional shazak. Raiding parties of gurrash occasionally raid isolated humanoid settlements for fresh meat to supplement their diet.

A gurrash is usually 7 to 8 feet tall with dark green or brown scales. Its tail is used for balance and is 3 to 4 feet long. A gurrash can weigh from 300 to 400 pounds.

Gurrash speak Abyssal and Draconic.

*SNIP*

Gator Folk
The gator folk are a brutish variety of gurrash lizardfolk. They are throwbacks to the gurrash's original lineages, when evil sorcery created the gurrash race by merging lizard folk with large alligators. Gator folk grow slowly throughout their lives like alligators do, and ancient gator folk can reach the size of ogres or small giants.

Gator folk are even more primitive and vicious than regular gurrash, but their culture is basically the same (including their hatred of shavak and demon worship). Gurrash and gator folk recognize each other as kin, and a gurrash tribe's relationship with a tribe of gator folk will be as good (or bad) as those with another tribe of gurrash, and vica versa. Gator folk tribes are usually ruled by clerics, who lead their people in horrible sacrifices to demonic beings.

Gator folk usually advance by humanoid hit dice (see below) and use crudely made greatswords as weapons instead of tridents. Those few gator folk with character class levels will generally be in control of their tribe. Gator folk have the following statistics, anything that is not noted is the same as regular gurrash lizardfolk.

Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d4+2) or greatsword +5 melee (2d6+3/19-20)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d4+2) and bite +2 melee (1d6+1) and tail slap +2 melee (2d4+3); or greatsword +5 melee (2d6+3/19-20) and bite +2 melee (1d6+1) and tail slap +2 melee (2d4+3)
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large)
 

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