Hey all. Brand new pnp player getting ready to start my first ever campaign next Friday. I'm very familiar with D&D in general, played lots of the computer games(NWN2, KOTOR, etc..) and know a lot of the basic rules, even watched my buddies occasionally back in circa 1991, but just never actually attempted to try it. Needless to say I am super excited as are all the other guys from work. We went out one night drinking beer and went from laughing about LARP, to video games, to going on and on about how we all would love to play pnp D&D, and so it just happened.
Anyways we already rolled our guys up and chose our base class. I'm working on my background right now and giving my DM at least an idea of where I plan on taking my character. We basically rolled dice to see who chose a character class first and then each player went from there. Idea being we could have a nice solid group. I went with Rogue as I just like the idea of having lots of skills, being stealthy when needbe and overall love the finesse style fighter over pure brute force. I think I'll puke if I play another "warrior" in any RPG game.
So my questions are going to revolve around building my Rogue and your real world knowledge of what will work best. I know "in theory" of how things will work, but without actually playing a true pnp game yet I don't know how true things will pan out. I tend to be a powergamer in my video games, though I don't want to totally min/max and cheese up my character too badly.
Some basic info:
DM is a first timer(thus I don't want to get overly complicated and make his first trip out a complete headache). He played a 4 year campaign with 3.5 rules during his college years so he has a good amount of experience. He wants to build a custom world for us based around all of our backstories. He's being pretty open about our builds so far, so long as they make sense. Prestige classes are ok, as are some classes from the "complete" books and such. However personally I don't want to use anything from ToB. Personal choice and to make it easier on his first time. Maybe as time goes by that will change, but for now somewhat simple.
Party is:
Human Rogue (me)
Uber dwarf cleric (his rolls were insane)
Half-Orc fighter
Human Ranger (archery specialist, so no melee)
Gnome Wizard
My rolls:
17
15
15
14
10
8
I knew we needed some sort of roguish build for traps and scouting and such so I chose that path. However that doesn't mean I want to go full rogue in all ways, I like the boost in skill points and such but want more BAB and hps by multiclassing.
My original plan for stats was:
8(cha), 10(wis), 17(dex), 15(str), 15(con),14(int)
All based on my original idea of a Rogue/Fighter. However I thought a lot about it and realized I want to be the charismatic face of the party because DM hinted a lot about not just fighting. He wants us to have to RP a bit when we change classes and talked about dealing with NPCs and such. Plus the idea of true RP instead of just killing everything in sight really intrigues me. After a lot of thought and reading I've come up with 2 options and I'd like some ideas on which may suit the party and my own power the best.
Option 1:
Rogue/Swashbuckler
17(dex), 14(con), 14(int), 14(cha), 10(str), 8(wis)
Basically 4 level of Rogue and the rest swashbuckler in order to keep up a lot of skills, get a nice BAB and stack it all together with Daring Outlaw. Basic theme is the charismatic finesse fighter that can do a little bit of everything. Planning on focusing on social skills and UMD(thus the higher cha),the basic rogue dex skills, movement like tumble(and jump synergy) and then going lighter in the scouting department since we do have a Ranger.
Fighting style is TWF with rapiers, taking advantage of free swashbuckler weapon finesse. Insightful strike to gain bonus damage with INT intsead of str, and shield of blades ACF to get free 2ac bonus assuming I'll be in the fray quite a bit since I'm the only other melee fighter. Going to try and talk DM into letting me take Rogue ACF penetrating strike so that I can still do damage against the usual non SA creatures.
Main idea is to boost my SA damage using the two weapons, and tumble around the combat field in order to try and flank enemies and catch them flat footed. Daring outlaw will let my SA damage scale with swashbuckler levels and hopefully DM will let me take some skill tricks from complete scoundrel. But that's about as complex as I'd like to go for DM(and my) first campaign.
Something like:
Rogue 1)TWF, Combat Initiative
Swash 2) weapon finesse
Rogue 3-5) to pickup uncanny dodge, 2d6 SA for daring outlaw, etc..
Swash 6- xx) to finish out my swashbuckler skill and keep the 4x skill mods and 10d HD.
Seems like a nice solid build that will give me really good SA damage *if* I can find ways to maximize it's use. Hardest part is trying to spread my skill points enough to focus on as much "face" skills as I can, keeping tumble and UMD maxed and then putting the rest into rogues skills and a couple skill tricks.
Now after getting this all worked out I had one other idea after reading about variant classes and different fighting styles. Here is the idea...
Spiked Chain Wielding Martial Rogue
Basic idea is to give up my SA completely in order to get more feats to specialize in a more direct fighting style, on the premise that SA is great but only if you can get them regularly. Getting more normal damage and different fighting techniques could be more worthwhile for group. I'd still get all of my normal rogue like skills and can still be a face, but I give up all SA damage in exchange for better average damage. Plus I have a feeling in this group I'll be having to do more regular melee and may not be able to rely on trying to SA everything into oblivion. Something like:
Rogue 1) EWP Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes(extra fighter feat)
Swash 2) Weapon Finesse(free), Arcane Stunt ACF
Rogue 3) Evasion(free), Improved Disarm(free fighter feat)
Rogue 4) Uncanny Dodge(free), Power Attack??
Swash 5) (lost grace from arcane stunt)
Swash 6) Insightful strike(int dmg boost)
etc...
So with that in mind could this work out just as good? I'm thinking with high dex bonus and combat reflexes, I'd get a huge amount of AoO and can then use them for tripping and hopefully get some free attacks. Can use arcane stunt tricks and tumbling to move around the battlefield with my 10` threat range. My hope is that with a huge threat range and movement capability I could really have some control. Creatures trying to get to the casters? Expedious retreat backwards ahead of them, then they have to pass through my threat range where I can get free attacks and hopefully trips or disarms.
So after all that wall of text it really boils down to this.
Which build do you think has the best possibilities for this party?
If answer is number 2, what path should I take overall? Stick to Rogue just enough to get uncanny dodge and lots of skill points, then go all fighter? I was thinking enough swashbuckler to get the Insightful strike, Arcane stunts(I like options) and free weapon finesse. Since I won't get grace or any dodge bonus stacking from daring outlaw, I see no need to go more than 3 levels of swash. I like the higher level special feats, but even though they get d10 HD, I'd lose out of the extra fighter feats which is the entire reason for getting rid of Sneak attack. I'll also take a few skill tricks(if DM lets me) to give me even more "ace up my sleeve" options. Fighters have crappy skill points so very hard for them to waste any on tricks. Rogue has a lot and can spare a few.
So 4 rogue, 3 swash, then all fighter to get tons of feats and the d10 HD. That way I go skill heavy in the beginning, then once I go swash/fighter I can just pump the rest into tumble, UMD and whatever else I decide to keep up.
Sorry for that huge wall of text but I'm super excited and want my character to be fun and useful. I like both ideas since both will give me something to do other than just stand in front of one creature and "auto attack". Sneaking around, tumbling and using tricks to gain tactical advantage for SA sounds fun but I know a lot of times I'll be stuck doing normal damage anyways. Wielding a spiked chain, getting lots of AoO's, thus lots of tripping and disarming, with altogether more feats for specializing sounds great too. Not to mention with arcane stunt and skill tricks to be able to pull it all together is even better. I just don't know how much of that which sounds great on paper will truly translate into the game itself. Is SA really that hard to get if you're not using tons of feats from the more esoteric sources? Off the top of my head it seems spiked chain can be super useful just with mostly core feats... Also the extra fighter feats give me more leeway into filling in other gaps in my guy. I could actually afford to get things like Force of Personality to change cha bonus for will saves, quick draw if I need to drop my chain and whip out a 1h weapon, etc..
One quick note: First build cannot get arcane stunt AND daring outlaw, so I could only get a few tricks in that one versus the arcane stunts that are pretty much for free.
So many options to choose from, I could use some guidance from experienced players
Anyways we already rolled our guys up and chose our base class. I'm working on my background right now and giving my DM at least an idea of where I plan on taking my character. We basically rolled dice to see who chose a character class first and then each player went from there. Idea being we could have a nice solid group. I went with Rogue as I just like the idea of having lots of skills, being stealthy when needbe and overall love the finesse style fighter over pure brute force. I think I'll puke if I play another "warrior" in any RPG game.
So my questions are going to revolve around building my Rogue and your real world knowledge of what will work best. I know "in theory" of how things will work, but without actually playing a true pnp game yet I don't know how true things will pan out. I tend to be a powergamer in my video games, though I don't want to totally min/max and cheese up my character too badly.
Some basic info:
DM is a first timer(thus I don't want to get overly complicated and make his first trip out a complete headache). He played a 4 year campaign with 3.5 rules during his college years so he has a good amount of experience. He wants to build a custom world for us based around all of our backstories. He's being pretty open about our builds so far, so long as they make sense. Prestige classes are ok, as are some classes from the "complete" books and such. However personally I don't want to use anything from ToB. Personal choice and to make it easier on his first time. Maybe as time goes by that will change, but for now somewhat simple.
Party is:
Human Rogue (me)
Uber dwarf cleric (his rolls were insane)
Half-Orc fighter
Human Ranger (archery specialist, so no melee)
Gnome Wizard
My rolls:
17
15
15
14
10
8
I knew we needed some sort of roguish build for traps and scouting and such so I chose that path. However that doesn't mean I want to go full rogue in all ways, I like the boost in skill points and such but want more BAB and hps by multiclassing.
My original plan for stats was:
8(cha), 10(wis), 17(dex), 15(str), 15(con),14(int)
All based on my original idea of a Rogue/Fighter. However I thought a lot about it and realized I want to be the charismatic face of the party because DM hinted a lot about not just fighting. He wants us to have to RP a bit when we change classes and talked about dealing with NPCs and such. Plus the idea of true RP instead of just killing everything in sight really intrigues me. After a lot of thought and reading I've come up with 2 options and I'd like some ideas on which may suit the party and my own power the best.
Option 1:
Rogue/Swashbuckler
17(dex), 14(con), 14(int), 14(cha), 10(str), 8(wis)
Basically 4 level of Rogue and the rest swashbuckler in order to keep up a lot of skills, get a nice BAB and stack it all together with Daring Outlaw. Basic theme is the charismatic finesse fighter that can do a little bit of everything. Planning on focusing on social skills and UMD(thus the higher cha),the basic rogue dex skills, movement like tumble(and jump synergy) and then going lighter in the scouting department since we do have a Ranger.
Fighting style is TWF with rapiers, taking advantage of free swashbuckler weapon finesse. Insightful strike to gain bonus damage with INT intsead of str, and shield of blades ACF to get free 2ac bonus assuming I'll be in the fray quite a bit since I'm the only other melee fighter. Going to try and talk DM into letting me take Rogue ACF penetrating strike so that I can still do damage against the usual non SA creatures.
Main idea is to boost my SA damage using the two weapons, and tumble around the combat field in order to try and flank enemies and catch them flat footed. Daring outlaw will let my SA damage scale with swashbuckler levels and hopefully DM will let me take some skill tricks from complete scoundrel. But that's about as complex as I'd like to go for DM(and my) first campaign.
Something like:
Rogue 1)TWF, Combat Initiative
Swash 2) weapon finesse
Rogue 3-5) to pickup uncanny dodge, 2d6 SA for daring outlaw, etc..
Swash 6- xx) to finish out my swashbuckler skill and keep the 4x skill mods and 10d HD.
Seems like a nice solid build that will give me really good SA damage *if* I can find ways to maximize it's use. Hardest part is trying to spread my skill points enough to focus on as much "face" skills as I can, keeping tumble and UMD maxed and then putting the rest into rogues skills and a couple skill tricks.
Now after getting this all worked out I had one other idea after reading about variant classes and different fighting styles. Here is the idea...
Spiked Chain Wielding Martial Rogue
Basic idea is to give up my SA completely in order to get more feats to specialize in a more direct fighting style, on the premise that SA is great but only if you can get them regularly. Getting more normal damage and different fighting techniques could be more worthwhile for group. I'd still get all of my normal rogue like skills and can still be a face, but I give up all SA damage in exchange for better average damage. Plus I have a feeling in this group I'll be having to do more regular melee and may not be able to rely on trying to SA everything into oblivion. Something like:
Rogue 1) EWP Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes(extra fighter feat)
Swash 2) Weapon Finesse(free), Arcane Stunt ACF
Rogue 3) Evasion(free), Improved Disarm(free fighter feat)
Rogue 4) Uncanny Dodge(free), Power Attack??
Swash 5) (lost grace from arcane stunt)
Swash 6) Insightful strike(int dmg boost)
etc...
So with that in mind could this work out just as good? I'm thinking with high dex bonus and combat reflexes, I'd get a huge amount of AoO and can then use them for tripping and hopefully get some free attacks. Can use arcane stunt tricks and tumbling to move around the battlefield with my 10` threat range. My hope is that with a huge threat range and movement capability I could really have some control. Creatures trying to get to the casters? Expedious retreat backwards ahead of them, then they have to pass through my threat range where I can get free attacks and hopefully trips or disarms.
So after all that wall of text it really boils down to this.
Which build do you think has the best possibilities for this party?
If answer is number 2, what path should I take overall? Stick to Rogue just enough to get uncanny dodge and lots of skill points, then go all fighter? I was thinking enough swashbuckler to get the Insightful strike, Arcane stunts(I like options) and free weapon finesse. Since I won't get grace or any dodge bonus stacking from daring outlaw, I see no need to go more than 3 levels of swash. I like the higher level special feats, but even though they get d10 HD, I'd lose out of the extra fighter feats which is the entire reason for getting rid of Sneak attack. I'll also take a few skill tricks(if DM lets me) to give me even more "ace up my sleeve" options. Fighters have crappy skill points so very hard for them to waste any on tricks. Rogue has a lot and can spare a few.
So 4 rogue, 3 swash, then all fighter to get tons of feats and the d10 HD. That way I go skill heavy in the beginning, then once I go swash/fighter I can just pump the rest into tumble, UMD and whatever else I decide to keep up.
Sorry for that huge wall of text but I'm super excited and want my character to be fun and useful. I like both ideas since both will give me something to do other than just stand in front of one creature and "auto attack". Sneaking around, tumbling and using tricks to gain tactical advantage for SA sounds fun but I know a lot of times I'll be stuck doing normal damage anyways. Wielding a spiked chain, getting lots of AoO's, thus lots of tripping and disarming, with altogether more feats for specializing sounds great too. Not to mention with arcane stunt and skill tricks to be able to pull it all together is even better. I just don't know how much of that which sounds great on paper will truly translate into the game itself. Is SA really that hard to get if you're not using tons of feats from the more esoteric sources? Off the top of my head it seems spiked chain can be super useful just with mostly core feats... Also the extra fighter feats give me more leeway into filling in other gaps in my guy. I could actually afford to get things like Force of Personality to change cha bonus for will saves, quick draw if I need to drop my chain and whip out a 1h weapon, etc..
One quick note: First build cannot get arcane stunt AND daring outlaw, so I could only get a few tricks in that one versus the arcane stunts that are pretty much for free.
So many options to choose from, I could use some guidance from experienced players
Last edited:
