[Proposal] Imposter's Armor

BloodPrincess · Feb 16, 2011

I know this is just strange to bring into this, but its to do with the bracers/shield argument.

Is there anything against wearing rings and gloves? I mean, you put a ring on, the cover it with a glove, arent you therefore using 2 magic items in the same spot?

stonegod · Feb 16, 2011

Rings have their own "slots" (2 to be exact).

BloodPrincess · Feb 16, 2011

oh, i am not denying they have their own slots, but they are actually covering each other, so by the sounding of the rules, if you cant use a magic shield and magic bracers at the same time even though they are only in the general vaccinty of each other why can you use a magic ring even though a magic glove could be completely covering it.

Within the broad category of clothing, items are
grouped by kind of clothing—whether you wear the
item on your head or your feet, for example. These are
called

item slots, and they provide a practical limit to
the number of magic items you can wear and use. You
can benefit from only one magic item that you wear
in your arms slot even if, practically speaking, you can

wear bracers and carry a shield at the same time.

Now, this specifically states that item slots is in reference to magic items. Later it also states that some things are based on physical limitations, but in saying that, in winter I wear 3 layers of clothing. Why is it not possible to wear regular leather armour then put chainmail over the top, and only recieve defensive bonuses from the one item of protective clothing? Yes, I couldnt use two weapons in one hand, but I could put a chain vest over a leather vest, though I would suggest, coupling the fact that you would only recieve defensive bonuses from one, you should automatically recieve penalties associated with encumbrance. Though for this affect the character is not wearing leather and chainmail, but leather and clothing.

stonegod · Feb 17, 2011

First: Nice drive by XPing, CaBaNa.

Second: tl;dr version—You can wear and benefit from one magical arm slot, head slot, feet slot, neck slot, waist slot, and hands slot item, and 2 rings. You can wear one set of armor (magical or not) and use up to two weapons/implements. You can benefit from a non-magical shield and magical bracers but not magical versions of both.

Longer version: Note, all citations are from the Rules Compendium which I accept as the most recent interpretations of the rules (as does LEB by its own rules).

Can I wear rings and hand slot items?

Yes. Item slots (pg. 276) are defined for "clothing and jewel" type items. It explicitly defines one slot for hands, feet, neck, head, arms, and waist and two slots for rings. The "practical/physical" limitation language does not apply to rings as they explicitly are named; this is a case of Specific Beat General (pg. 29).

Can I benefit from a magical shield and magical bracers?

No. This is a specific example on pg. 276.

Can I benefit from a non-magical shield and magical bracers?

Yes. A non-magical shield is not a magical item and thus does not take up the arms slot. Only magical shields do so (as they are arms slot items).

Can I wear two suits of armor?

Armors are not slotted items (neither are weapons or implements; pg 276). You are allowed to wield two weapons (pg. 269) or implements (as you just need to hold it to work, pg. 274), magical or otherwise, but you only benefit from both them in certain circumstances. There is not a single mention of wearing two armors; all references are to singular armor. While one may argue "that which is not forbidden is allowed", that is not an premise of the game and we quickly run into logical problems: If I can wear two armors and benefit from either, I can wear three, and thus infinite by induction; the same with shields.

There is no distinction of the magical/non-magical distinction as there are with item slots: You not allowed to hold a non-magical and magical weapon in the same hand. You can hold/wear one weapon/armor/shield regardless of its magicalness.

stonegod · Feb 17, 2011

Now that I have that out of the way, here are my thoughts on the actual matter at hand, the proposal.

First, as anyone who has examined proposals before, KD is generally against adding items to the system. I don't know if that means he will never vote one in, but you're going to have make an extra strong argument, me thinks. However, one should not state what the judge's vote without their actual vote as this is getting close to violating ENWorld's "no ascribing motives" rule.

Second, I disagree that the lack of items of the sort twilsemail is asking for is a conscious choice by the designers. The lack of existence is not proof of anything.

I agree that the Hat of Disguise is a solution to the problem, but not necessarily an ideal solution in all cases, esp. w.r.t. changelings. Infiltration often involves disguise. There are plenty of non-magical means to accomplish this affect (the affect of changing clothes to get a specific "uniform"):
- Grab a "uniform" beforehand
- Grab a "uniform" during (after taking out guards, etc.)
The problem is the mid-shapeshift in an intrigue. Again, there are ways to ameliorate this: The disguise use of the Bluff skill can be used here. In fact, there is no mechanical description what is going on during this disguise—modifying/changing clothing (as in Cloth armor or material worn over armor) is very likely covered. This could be used mid-escape by a changeling if they were fleeing something depending on what the circumstances. [Skill challenge?]

The main use case of a "shapeshifting" armor item is when you have to change your clothes right now, likely during combat and perhaps during a skill challenge. The question is what is the intended benefit of such an item in these circumstances? I'd like answered (just cosmetic change? A Bluff bonus? Something else?)

That being said, I've still okay with a Cloth item that allows a (likely minor action) to change into a fixed set of outfits. I don't see that as unbalancing, though I might want to hear from other judges as to their thoughts.

renau1g · Feb 17, 2011

I don't find the Shiftweave unbalanced either. TBH I'm not even finding the Imposter's Armor too bad. So maybe 1 PC gets an advantage with their clothing. It's really a very minor benefit overall. Sure, it may be kinda sorta like invisibilty-lite, except far less useful of course, in that the changeling can get away from pursuers once they're in the crowd. That's also if the changeling is running away by themselves, meaning either an almost TPK occurred or they went off on their own (which doesn't happen too often in PbP). I do agree with twilsemail that you are giving up many better enchantments to have this one.

Remember though that this sword cuts both ways. If PC changeling's can access this, so will NPC's and that will make changelings far deadlier against the PC's.

It also is a bit more realistic TBH, as I can't find a realistic reason in game that whomever devises magic item enchantments wouldn't have developed this for leather/hide/cloth armors.

So, I'm still not 100% yet but I'm leaning towards yes.

stonegod · Feb 17, 2011

Unfortunately, the "realism" argument is generally a non-starter for me (as that could argue several OP rulings that are for game balance reasons).

KarinsDad · Feb 17, 2011

renau1g said:
Sure, it may be kinda sorta like invisibilty-lite, except far less useful of course, in that the changeling can get away from pursuers once they're in the crowd. That's also if the changeling is running away by themselves, meaning either an almost TPK occurred or they went off on their own (which doesn't happen too often in PbP).

I don't see where this item ability would actually be used too much in PBP. It's more of a "solo adventure" item. Getting away during a TPK would be one use for it in PBP, but heading off on their own seems to be rare for PBP PCs. And even TPKs are pretty rare.

I also think that this is why the designers put very little of this into the game system. They want the players to overcome non-combat challenges via roleplaying and skill challenges (and in groups), not by just using a magic item to change the PC's clothing, the PC is now automatically disguised (with a Bluff bonus to boot), and the roleplaying aspect of it is mostly dropped on the floor.

What DM is going to say to a Changeling PC who can automatically totally change their clothes and appearance "Err, you don't get away in the crowd, the guards have spotted you."? The Changling ducks down an alleyway and he's suddenly someone else. Invisibility is extremely hard to acquire in the game system, but camouflage will work just as good probably 90% of the time.

There are very few powers and items in the game system that change the appearance of the PC. With all of the shapeshifting and illusional ways to do it in 3.5, I cannot imagine that this is by accident. I look at powers like the Wizard 6th Daily Disguise Self and say "Do we want to hand out a significant portion of the utility of this once per day power out to PCs to use at will without a real cost?".

Or replace the ability of the Mercurial Assassin? Or that of a Disincarnate?

In this case, the item appears to be either nearly totally useless (the situation doesn't call for it), or extremely useful (invisibility-lite). I don't prefer to encourage either direction.

I prefer for players that want it to put in an effort for it. For example, con 13 and str 13 and the chain armor feat with Imposter's Armor (or just an appropriate class) and the PC gets it. Or taking Mercurial Assassin. Or multi-classing into Wizard and getting the Disguise Self spell. Or getting a Hat of Disguise or buying Potions of Mimicry. The options for this are out there, they are just a bit rare and take some effort.

When the player has to go out of his way to gain an ability that is hard to acquire, then they will also go out of their way to find interesting ways to use it.

Handing out invisibility-lite (or major camouflage) for free with a single magic item rules change? Meh. I think rules changes should be for serious gaps in the rules like the Expertise for free house rule or house rules that will benefit a significant portion of the people playing here (like Improved Defenses for everyone, woo hoo!).