D&D 3E/3.5 3.5: newb needs a little help with Hellfire Warlock build

Particle_Man · Mar 11, 2011

WotC's own examples for feats for Warlocks include such things as Maximum Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast) and Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast). Page 214, Players Handbook II. Btw, they also have Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast).

Also, Complete Arcane pp. 71-2 says "Warlocks and other creatures with spell-like abilities might find the following feats useful . . . Creatures with Spell-Like abilities at a high enough level will find sudden metamagic feats less useful than the dedicated feats Empower Spell-Like Ability and Quicken Spell-Like Ability (see page 303 of the Monster Manual), as well as the Maximize Spell-Like Ability feat introduced in this chapter." under the section "Invocations and Spell-Like Abilities".

Complete Mage has examples of Warlocks with the feat Maximize Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast) for two of the three "warlock prestige class" characters in that book (p. 57, p. 60).

So it is clear that Spell-Like ability feats can be and are used for Eldritch Blast. Pergentile is incorrect to say that "It is specifically stated that metamagic feats (even ones for SLA's) can't improve a warlock's eldritch blast, the only exception being the sudden metamagic feats."

irdeggman · Mar 11, 2011

Hexer said:
Please dont let this thread become a discussion about this specific work around for the hellfire "cost"! Its off limits for me anyways because: no Magic of Incarnum
Actually I think this question is answered in this specific case (or it will be as soon as I have a talk to my GM about how we could handle things).

Right now I'm more concerned about spending my feats in a good way, especially this for example:

DOES eldritch blast always count as a lvl1 invocation?

Base - no with essence or shapes applied - yes.

irdeggman · Mar 11, 2011

Hexer said:
Ok, scrap that. I just found out I'd need to be lvl 16 to quicken that specific ability since its level 4 and quicken spelllike ability works only on abilities that are caster level /2 -4 (in my case 12/2 -4 = 2)

Check the errata to Complete Arcane

"Page 7: Eldritch Blast
Second paragraph of the Eldritch Blast ability
description:
Change “An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a spell
whose level is equal to one-half the warlock’s class
level (round down), with a minimum spell level of 1st
and a maximum of 9th when the warlock reaches 18th
level or higher” to “An eldritch blast is the equivalent
of a 1st-level spell. If you apply a blast shape or eldritch
essence invocation to your eldritch blast (see page 130),
your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape
or essence.”
Any other references to eldritch blast being something
other than the equivalent of a 1st-level spell should be
disregarded.
Any other references claiming that eldritch blast is not
an invocation should be disregarded.
A warlock can use eldritch blast at will.

Page 8: Invocations and Eldritch Blast
Change this section as follows:
Invocations and Eldritch Blast: Eldritch blast is an
invocation. Other invocations provide a warlock with
the ability to modify his eldritch blast or add new
eldritch attacks."

irdeggman · Mar 11, 2011

Hexer said:
Hmmmm I may have to look into those heritages more closely. Just from what you've written I gotta say though: I dont really use invocations that allow a save so at first glance it looks like I wouldnt benefit much from it... You may be right about point blank shot and precise shot of course. Gotta look into that more, too

They also increase CL (Caster Level) of invocations. This helps with overcoming Spell Resistance (which works against EB) and any invocations that duplicate spells that have level based effects.

Particle_Man · Mar 11, 2011

Overcoming Spell Resistance is a good point. If you use the essence Hellfire Blast then you presumably can't simultaneously use the essence Vitriolic Blast (the acid one that ignores SR) so you have to take SR into account. And if you take a level of Binder, that is -1 warlock caster level right there. You might want to look into the feats Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration. There is also a feat called Arcane Mastery in Complete Arcane that lets you "take 10" on caster level checks, and another feat called Practiced Spellcaster (also in Complete Arcane) that lets you add four to your caster level (but does not let you exceed your HD in caster level -- it is for multi-classers and "half-casters" mainly). Alas, that is a lot of feats, and you don't gain many.

Dandu · Mar 11, 2011

Particle_Man said:
Overcoming Spell Resistance is a good point. If you use the essence Hellfire Blast then you presumably can't simultaneously use the essence Vitriolic Blast (the acid one that ignores SR) so you have to take SR into account.

Actually, Hellfire Blast isn't a blast essence. You can use Vitrolic Blast along with it, turning your Eldritch Blasts into napalm.

Hellfire Blast (Sp): Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can change your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast. A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level. If your blast hits multiple targets (for example, the eldritch chain or eldritch cone blast shape invocations), each target takes the extra damage. This damage is not fire damage. Hellfire burns hotter than any normal fire, as described in the sidebar on page 119.
Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage. Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this granted power, if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.

Particle_Man · Mar 11, 2011

Wait. I can see three possible interpretations here, but one doesn't make sense to me:

a) the vitriolic hellfire blast means xd6 acid stuff (based on the warlock class) and 2-6d6 hellfire stuff (only the added 2 to 6d6 being hellfire, and thus it being subject to sr but not the acid stuff. This would make it a little like a cleric's flame strike.

b) the hellfire blast "changes the eldritch blast" and that means it changes the virtriolic blast to hellfire (or any other essence) all the way through, but that means the vitriolic part is lost, so no auto-SR penetration.

c) The vitriolic hellfire blast is 100% acid and 100% hellfire at the same time, all the way through. Full damage, full SR penetration. Very Happy Warock.

That last option doesn't make sense to me. That's like having an attack that is vitriolic and brimstone at the same time, all the way through. I could see something that transforms some of an essence type of damage into something else, or something that transforms all of an essence type of damage and something else, but not something that keeps its essence type while also being something else all the way through.

My interpretation of the rules is that hellfire blast acts to change the eldritch blast, and if it changes, then it loses any other eldritch essence it would have in order to become hellfire.

I favour interpretation b as the correct one.

Mind you if there is a feat somewhere that would let a warlock have two essences at the same time, I would allow a warlock with that feat to also have hellfire at the same time as another essence.

Dandu · Mar 11, 2011

Now, I may not be intepreting your options correclty, but it seems like you've left out option d) all hellfire+eldritch blast damage is now acid. This means you still get the bonus damage from the hellfire blast, but it is now assigned the [Acid] energy type. This is the one I favor.

That last option doesn't make sense to me. That's like having an attack that is vitriolic and brimstone at the same time, all the way through. I could see something that transforms some of an essence type of damage into something else, or something that transforms all of an essence type of damage and something else, but not something that keeps its essence type while also being something else all the way through.

Don't ever take a class on quantum mechanics, Particle Man.

Particle_Man · Mar 11, 2011

Dandu said:
Now, I may not be intepreting your options correclty, but it seems like you've left out option d) all hellfire+eldritch blast damage is now acid. This means you still get the bonus damage from the hellfire blast, but it is now assigned the [Acid] energy type. This is the one I favor.

Don't ever take a class on quantum mechanics, Particle Man.

Your option d is my option c. I am claiming that hellfire/acid doesn't make sense in the context of the game, which is not, as far as I can tell, a game the recognizes the quantum mechanics at work in our universe. Therefore, I am claiming that the game designers either did not take classes in quantum mechanics or made the deliberate decision not to introduce such into their hellfire mechanics. After all, if they wanted that sort of thing they could also have allowed for a warlock to have two essences at the same time, and they never did, as far as I know. It would be weird to allow it only for hellfire and never for anything else, and besides, the word "change" to me indicates, well, "change". They could have specified "add to" instead of "change" if they had wished and they didn't.

Dandu · Mar 11, 2011

Particle_Man said:
Your option d is my option c.

To clarify: Option C is that it deals the bonus hellfire damage, but the energy type is [Acid]?

As written, I see it functioning thusly:

1. Hellfire Blast changes your Eldritch Blast to a Hellfire Blast. This is not an essence, but a change to the actual Eldritch Blast ability. You deal Elditch Blast damage + bonus Hellfire Blast damage. The damage type is [Hellfire]
2. The Vitrolic Blast Essence is added to this Hellfire Blast. The [Hellfire] damage type is changed to [Acid], and there is additional acid damage dealt in the following rounds.