A question for CR experts.

Flexor the Mighty! · Nov 12, 2002

Moloch as listed in the Tome of Horrors preview has a CR of 28. He is listed as a 27th level cleric and a 27th level sorcerer. If I take away those spell casting abilities what does that do to his CR?

Drawmack · Nov 12, 2002

wouldn't that give him a CR of 54?

Vaxalon · Nov 12, 2002

I would say you should recalculate based on his existing abilities.

No, it doesn't make him CR 54, basically because a spellcaster/spellcaster multiclass isn't dangerous enough.

CRGreathouse · Nov 12, 2002

The final CR should be around 24, I think. Against AC 30 his average melee damage is over 60 points, and his own AC is high enough that balors and pit fiends hit only on natural 20s, and solars need 19. 651 hit points don't hurt, either...

Aaron L · Nov 12, 2002

Ok, if a human was a 27th level sorcerer/27th level cleric he would be CR 54. Why does a demon lord of the same levels not have at least the same CR?

Upper_Krust · Nov 12, 2002

Hi Flexor mate!

Flexor the Mighty! said:
Moloch as listed in the Tome of Horrors preview has a CR of 28.

Actually I rate Moloch as CR 53.

So a party of four PCs of Party Challenge Rating (PCR) 53 should defeat Moloch using 20% of their resources.

A party of four PCs of 28-31 (PCR) would have a 50/50 chance against him.

Incidently PCR is simply the average CR of the party; where player character CR is measured as:

Level + 0.5 CR/5 points of ability score over 10 (don't count non-permanent effects).

eg. A 25th-level Paladin with Str 16 (CR +0.5); Dex 12; Con 15 (CR +0.5); Int 11; Wis 14 and Cha 20 (CR +1) would = CR 27.

Flexor the Mighty! said:
He is listed as a 27th level cleric and a 27th level sorcerer. If I take away those spell casting abilities what does that do to his CR?

Without the above integrated spellcasting levels I rate Moloch -12 CR less than before (possibly -13).

So without the Integrated Spellcasting Levels he is CR40/41.

So a party of four PCs of PCR 40 should defeat Moloch* using 20% of their resources.

A party of four PCs of 24-27 (PCR) would have a 50/50 chance against him*.

*Moloch sans integrated spell levels.

jmucchiello · Nov 12, 2002

Aaron L said:
Ok, if a human was a 27th level sorcerer/27th level cleric he would be CR 54. Why does a demon lord of the same levels not have at least the same CR?

Because CRs are broken. Lower the levels for easier understanding. Which is more dangerous to 4 10th level characters: A human sor-5/clr-5 or a human sor-10? The 5/5 character has access to 3rd level divine and 2nd level arcane magic. The 10 character has access to 5th level arcane magic.

Of course, the 4 10th level characters will prevail, but sor-10 has a better chance of leaving a lasting impression.

Joe

Dr_Rictus · Nov 12, 2002

Aaron L said:
Ok, if a human was a 27th level sorcerer/27th level cleric he would be CR 54. Why does a demon lord of the same levels not have at least the same CR?

For starters, because he's not "of the same levels." Unlike the multiclass character, he doesn't have 54 hit dice with the attendant bonuses, feats, skills, and such.

It's also true that spellcaster/spellcaster multiclasses are not particularly powerful, so the CR rule for character levels doesn't give good results. But you're not comparing apples to apples in the first place.

Balgus · Nov 12, 2002

Originally posted by Aaron L :
Ok, if a human was a 27th level sorcerer/27th level cleric he would be CR 54. Why does a demon lord of the same levels not have at least the same CR?

If you a couple of PCs, a clr 27, and a sorc 27 working in concert, then the CR of the couple is 29. (doubling the monsters adds +2 to existing CR). Since this is only one opponent (as opposed to the couple) he only gets one action compared to the two that the couple would get a round (or however much they may get- it is still 1:2 ratio) he is slightly less dangerous than fighting the couple- so CR28 sounds right.